Brand Spanking New Theatre Facility

In NYS you can hire a consultant to write a spec for a project. That consultant can stay on through the bid, acceptance, build, and verification of the work. However, that consultant can not bid on the project even if they have a construction arm. In my view this separation should be the standard just to give you checks and balances. Write a spec yourself or have someone write the spec. Get bids from people that were not involved in writing the spec. Do the job. Verify the job was done to spec.
 
And consider the "spec credit" issue. If a vendor can claim spec credit, even if that is helping an architect or engineer, they get a lower price from manufacturer, or should I say all the other bidders get a higher one. That does not happen on my jobs or those of similar independent consultants - everyone gets the price in line with their agreement with the manufacturer.

I know there is seldom a project I work on that my experience or expertise doesn't save more in construction - or much more - than our fees. I may show the owner the wisdom of spending it on something else, but in any case they get a higher value.
 
I think there are plusses and minuses that should not be overlooked and in both cases there is good to be had.

The point about installing a JBL Vertec into a space with a sufficient PA system is absolutely valid. But then on the other hand, if you were after a new, high spec sound system... would you prefer to have it supplied and configured by a company who specialise in the supply and configuration of Meyer PA - who are a dealer out of convenience and profitability; or by an independent consultant who is not directly experienced to a great extent with any brand, and is far less familiar with the strengths and constraints of their particular products? I have seen plenty of light, sound, video, rigging etc products supplied where the wrong model has been supplied, as the supplier did not properly understand the product range or how to install it to best effect.

On the other hand, as has already been expressed, I have plenty of times seen what can only be described as "the wrong product" being supplied because the supplier has a cushty relationship with the manufacturer that allows them to tender for jobs at a much lower rate. This is counterproductive too, often the venue ends up having to buy the right product anyway as what they've been supplied does not meet design specifications for the shows they are receiving, and the total cost is far higher because they end up with both. I know a major international venue who took a substantial order (>500 units) of one brand of generic lighting during the install, only for a head of lighting to later be appointed, who upon inspecting the store, declared "not on my watch" or something along those lines, and had the venue invest in a complete re-stock of something else.

This is why my point was:
"Regardless of whether your consultant is independent or has dealership connections; you need to keep a tight leash on them to ensure that you are provided with what is best for you, not them."

This issue is not even limited to supplier relationships. Some consultants will sell you a product you don't want just because it will look good in THEIR portfolio. The job brief doesn't go in there, just pretty pictures and specs. Architects are renowned for it. One I know of was including a beautiful decorative spiral staircase into the raised FOH position because it looked nice... with absolutely no appreciation for the fact that mixing on a raised platform often sucks for acoustics, and that if you have to put a touring sound desk in FOH it will be a lot easier in a lift than up a spiral staircase. No amount of independence can stop somebody doing that to you. So this is why having your own criteria firmly drawn up, and having regular checks to ensure your contractor is sticking to what you want not what they want, is important.
 
In NYS you can hire a consultant to write a spec for a project. That consultant can stay on through the bid, acceptance, build, and verification of the work. However, that consultant can not bid on the project even if they have a construction arm. In my view this separation should be the standard just to give you checks and balances. Write a spec yourself or have someone write the spec. Get bids from people that were not involved in writing the spec. Do the job. Verify the job was done to spec.

That is a good rule to have, as a lot of issues stem from contractor/consultants bidding on their own designs. However, most manufacturers know how their gear gets into a job. Even if Contractor doesn't bid on a specific job they designed, the manufacturers will still know they are the ones responsible for specifying the gear.

We've also run into issues where venues wanted to replace their FOH sound system because they were getting complaints. They were mostly talking to local contractors about options who gave them ideas all of the map of how to improve it buy replacing speakers or adding more. We walked the room and identified the room acoustics were the culprit, not the speakers themselves, which none of the contractors caught. After a few acoustical panels were added to stop a bad reflection, all the complaints went away without touching the speakers.
 
I've moved through this spectrum twice - once in architectural lighting and now in theatrical consulting soon to be fully independent. This is not a new issue for us or many other fields and we won't solve it here.

1. Integrity can not be forced. Or as others have said "You can't legislate morality!" Independence helps but it is not a panacea.

2. Disclosure is critical. I have had many clients that want us to use products that have local support, i.e. available from our retail dept. Some simply want a turn key solution and are willing to risk/pay what it takes. Some feel profit on sales should go to those that do the work - mostly the consultant - and that the overlap reduces their overall costs. Others, especially governmental types, insist on a complete break. To go into such a case expecting a sale would be ludicrous. The short version is that everyone has biases and temptations, be honest with your clients about yours and everyone will be happier.
 
As good as the system is in NY, which I agree with in theory, I have seen multiple instances where schools get inferior equipment than spec because a vendor comes in with a presentation to the Board of Education or finance office that saves $. Claims that the products function the same are never true, and there is nothing that can be done at that point unless the consultant puts a stop to it (which has not occurred in my case).

Hire a good consultant like Bill or many others!
 
As good as the system is in NY, which I agree with in theory, I have seen multiple instances where schools get inferior equipment than spec because a vendor comes in with a presentation to the Board of Education or finance office that saves $. Claims that the products function the same are never true, and there is nothing that can be done at that point unless the consultant puts a stop to it (which has not occurred in my case).

Hire a good consultant like Bill or many others!

Or just know what is going on and ride the wave. There are companies out there who build to other companies specs while building an inferior product. This happens in all industries. Many bid process won't let an individual product be named so you have to go the long way around and write a spec to be met. In my world we get by this because we need to meet riders... something a high school does not have to do.
 
Many bid process won't let an individual product be named so you have to go the long way around and write a spec to be met. In my world we get by this because we need to meet riders... something a high school does not have to do.

Seems like an old trick used to be to say "Ellipsoidal fixtures must utilize the HPL family of lamps". Unfortunately, that probably won't work anymore as even a 360Q can be ordered to accept the HPL.
 
Seems like an old trick used to be to say "Ellipsoidal fixtures must utilize the HPL family of lamps". Unfortunately, that probably won't work anymore as even a 360Q can be ordered to accept the HPL.
I'm sorry, don't you mean an "Industry-standard ERS that utilizes the HPL family of lamps, interchangeable lens tube assemblies ranging in size from 5° to 90°, allows use of industry standard accessories, features both a pattern and accessory slot, and allow for the use of purpose made followspot assemblies and/or internal accessory slot based subtractive color mixing engines"?. It can be crazy at times how many hoops school districts can make us go through. I know that sometimes playing the "this is industry standard, and this is the only piece of equipment that we can use to properly teach students" works, but that depends on the support level of your administration.
 
Seems like an old trick used to be to say "Ellipsoidal fixtures must utilize the HPL family of lamps". Unfortunately, that probably won't work anymore as even a 360Q can be ordered to accept the HPL.

Technically that is against the rules in many places... you can not write a spec that can not be produced by a competitor if the specific spec is protected by patents. Not saying it does not work, but many places will throw out specs like that out.

One of the conferances that we host every year is the Purchasing Forum for NYS. We get to hear about all kinds of exciting things like this. Specs should be written to function, not to form. You can't write a spec for a vehicle that includes "must have a Hemi"... because only one company makes that.
 
I'm sorry, don't you mean an "Industry-standard ERS that utilizes the HPL family of lamps, interchangeable lens tube assemblies ranging in size from 5° to 90°, allows use of industry standard accessories, features both a pattern and accessory slot, and allow for the use of purpose made followspot assemblies and/or internal accessory slot based subtractive color mixing engines"?. It can be crazy at times how many hoops school districts can make us go through. I know that sometimes playing the "this is industry standard, and this is the only piece of equipment that we can use to properly teach students" works, but that depends on the support level of your administration.

The Altman Phoenix would fill most of those specs.
 
You
Technically that is against the rules in many places... you can not write a spec that can not be produced by a competitor if the specific spec is protected by patents. Not saying it does not work, but many places will throw out specs like that out.

One of the conferances that we host every year is the Purchasing Forum for NYS. We get to hear about all kinds of exciting things like this. Specs should be written to function, not to form. You can't write a spec for a vehicle that includes "must have a Hemi"... because only one company makes that.

You can list a special manufacturer but typically have to add "or approved equal". We also list specific and the phrase, "must be compatible with large inventory of existing equipment and spare parts". So far NY State and City have not questioned this practice.
 
I am finding government purchasing authorities don't like "or equal" in a spec any longer as its a judgment call often at a time when there isn't time for consideration. Instead they prefer at least three named products that all meet the spec. This avoids the shabby imitation equals and last minute pitches.

Generally they have provisions for just naming two that are not difficult - a letter with reasons has been sufficient.

They also have provisions for sole sourcing or one name specs but that is a much tougher bar to cross. I have, when an Owner was certain, usually for lighting consoles and sometimes fixtures. Hmmm, wonder who's.

In a few instances when it was "really important" I have the console in an ff&e package with all the turnover items and know most dealers - who we pre-qualify - will swap a few fixtures to get the console changed to the one the user really wants.

I try to keep this all above board, at least at the local level with the school, and don't worry as much about the beaureaucrat in the state capitol.

Just to be sure, these are public projects funded by taxpayers. Private schools and institutions can do what they please.
 
I do apologise to the OP for dragging his suggestions thread quite so far off topic...

But it serves to highlight the point I made in the first place. Keep a tab on what your contractors are doing; and make sure that your company's PM for this supports your supervision. The plan is only one thing, I have heard of more than one instance where a supplier has won the bid on the basis of supplying one thing, and has then substituted it for something else on the grounds of "availability" or "local support" or something like that, and the client, being short of a technical expert in-house, has nodded and said "yes that's fine as long as it really does do the same thing". Obviously that's a matter of opinion, I would be inclined to disagree in the case of a theatre who's supplier won the bid with a MA2 Light and substituted it with a Geo. Also heard of a theatre who were due 50 electric fly bars, and ended up with 36, when the installer assured their client that having greater spacing between fly bars would improve their versatility.

I honestly think that both with installs, and with upgrades, it should be considered essential to have somebody in-house, on-side, supervising the work being produced by the external contractors. Not only will it allow you to identify shortcomings and problems will in advance, but just having you there doing your thing, and them being aware of your presence, renders them much less likely to try and pull a fast one on you in the first place.
 
I do apologise to the OP for dragging his suggestions thread quite so far off topic...

But it serves to highlight the point I made in the first place. Keep a tab on what your contractors are doing; and make sure that your company's PM for this supports your supervision. The plan is only one thing, I have heard of more than one instance where a supplier has won the bid on the basis of supplying one thing, and has then substituted it for something else on the grounds of "availability" or "local support" or something like that, and the client, being short of a technical expert in-house, has nodded and said "yes that's fine as long as it really does do the same thing". Obviously that's a matter of opinion, I would be inclined to disagree in the case of a theatre who's supplier won the bid with a MA2 Light and substituted it with a Geo. Also heard of a theatre who were due 50 electric fly bars, and ended up with 36, when the installer assured their client that having greater spacing between fly bars would improve their versatility.

I honestly think that both with installs, and with upgrades, it should be considered essential to have somebody in-house, on-side, supervising the work being produced by the external contractors. Not only will it allow you to identify shortcomings and problems will in advance, but just having you there doing your thing, and them being aware of your presence, renders them much less likely to try and pull a fast one on you in the first place.

I think one of the primary functions I perform as an independent consultant that works with the users and owners - and those are two different entities in most projects - to agree on and document in plans and specs the functions and quality of all the systems and equipment and the basic building is then ensuring that what is furnished and installed complies with the plans and specs. I think that is one of the main problems with contractor/sales rep as consultant, where the only think assured is the contractor's profit, and if that means substituting a product, that's what they'll do with no independent eyes and voice to speak against it.

The sorts of modifications to the plans and specs you mention - substituting less expensive consoles and deleting rigging for instance - is simply unheard of on projects I and many of my professional colleagues consult on. It does seem to be more rampant in the a/v world though, which I don't do.

Above, in response to "Some consultants will sell you a product you don't want...." - I simply don't "sell" any any products beyond our design services, which are to assist the owner and user in getting what they want and need, what ever is in the Owners best interest.
 
The sorts of modifications to the plans and specs you mention - substituting less expensive consoles and deleting rigging for instance - is simply unheard of on projects I and many of my professional colleagues consult on. It does seem to be more rampant in the a/v world though, which I don't do.

I think in places where there are many theatres, consultants, suppliers etc to choose from; like the USA / UK / EU etc... this is less of an issue. But there are a lot of new major facilities popping up in countries with a lot of money but no skills, such as in the Gulf and in Asia. For these, a couple of major contractors in all fields seem to be doing the same jobs with each other on these facilities, and the ability to exploit the fact that the client frequently will not employ an independent advisor in the job and take their advice from the same person they buy kit from; is much more prevalent in these builds. I think this is quite possibly for the same reason as in corporate A/V as you mention - just down to the lack of people in the organisation who are able to (A) spec what they want in the first place, instead letting the sales company do it; and (B) spot when they're being played.

I did gigs at 2 newly opened facilities in Asia. Both facilities had very similar project briefs, similar budgets, similar capacities, similar purpose. For all intents and purposes they could have most likely built the same theatre twice and everyone would have gone home happy. The one thing that was different is how they planned and spec'd the theatre. One brought in this group of major contractors and said "we want a theatre. X-big. Y-capacity. Z-theme." The other instead first brought in several members of staff - an HOD LX, HOD Sound + Video, HOD Stage + Flys, and a stage manager. They then said "we want a theatre. X-big, Y-capicity, Z-theme. But also must be A-lights, B-console, C-dimmers, D-speakers, E-sound desk, F-projectors, G-fly system...." you get the idea. The end result is one theatre is drastically better from a technical standpoint than the other. I shouldn't have to explain which. If you assume that they took the same stance on the other systems in the venue, the overall venue is probably significantly better all round. It's not cheap to do. Those people should expect $100,000 salaries and so to bring in the team above probably cost them half a million dollars. But in facilities of that size, the savings will have paid for them, and the savings are ongoing too.

In my mind there are 2 main issues that you need to protect against when building a new facility:
1) The design and spec contractor selling you something you don't need, don't want, could do better than, etc; to maximise their own take.
2) The installation contractor substituting the specified kit with something you don't need, don't want, could do better than, etc; to maximise their own take.

I appreciate that you say you don't do this and that is great. But it does happen. Particularly in the field of state-run new builds which have to adopt extremely bureaucratic and budget-orientated tendering processes. Some of these companies have big experience in dealing with large government tenders and how to maximise the benefits to their own pocket without a care in the world for the operational effectiveness and/or occupational safety of the technical departments of the venue. And I believe that it could be mostly stopped, or at least hugely limited, if more new build venues would take the time and expense to employ their HODs before the build begins, have them supervise the spec and install of the building, and have them there to prevent the contractors getting any ideas about pulling a fast one.
 
While I'm not sure experience in an OPEC country is directly applicable to a small US college, but events and consequences not too dissimilar ttyo those described by worldwide do occur when the owner and/or architect turn to vendors and contractors for design services.
 
I do apologise to the OP for dragging his suggestions thread quite so far off topic...

But it serves to highlight the point I made in the first place. Keep a tab on what your contractors are doing; and make sure that your company's PM for this supports your supervision. The plan is only one thing, I have heard of more than one instance where a supplier has won the bid on the basis of supplying one thing, and has then substituted it for something else on the grounds of "availability" or "local support" or something like that, and the client, being short of a technical expert in-house, has nodded and said "yes that's fine as long as it really does do the same thing". Obviously that's a matter of opinion, I would be inclined to disagree in the case of a theatre who's supplier won the bid with a MA2 Light and substituted it with a Geo. Also heard of a theatre who were due 50 electric fly bars, and ended up with 36, when the installer assured their client that having greater spacing between fly bars would improve their versatility.

I honestly think that both with installs, and with upgrades, it should be considered essential to have somebody in-house, on-side, supervising the work being produced by the external contractors. Not only will it allow you to identify shortcomings and problems will in advance, but just having you there doing your thing, and them being aware of your presence, renders them much less likely to try and pull a fast one on you in the first place.

You also have to remember that the consultant doesn't work for the tech department. We work for the architect, who was hired by the organization as a whole. This can lead to a lot of finger pointing. We recently had a school where we talked to the tech director who asked for X, Y, and Z. When the school district got the budget for X, Y and Z, they told us to only include X in our design. The tech director wasn't too happy he only got X even after we suggested he go talk with the principal who made the cuts. That time we actually got to talk to the tech director - the principal could have just as easily pointed the finger at us and told the tech director we did a poor design.

Your 36 electric fly bars could easily have been a budget cut from above that didn't filter down to the tech staff. On the other hand, if the design called 50 and the contractor provided 36, the contractor shouldn't have been paid until 50 showed up on the job site. Typically a GC will be bonded, so if the job isn't competed the owner can make a claim against the bond or a final payment is withheld until the consultant certifies the system as complete. Most consultants perform construction administration to ensure that the contractors meet the design requirements. I agree that it helps if a knowledgeable person from the owner is available to provide additional input, but your consultant should be watching out for you too.
 
Rwhealy points out that a typical challenge of US public work like schools. You have an owner, typically represented by the elected school board, various administrayors, anyone of which may be tasked with oversight of the project oriiitcould be someone else, and the users - faculty and staff. As often as not, the school has no theatre or equipment comparable to what they will have. For example they could have a 24 channel 2 scene and 24 dimmers and will have 2 or 3 racks of dimmer per circuit with an Ion class console. Dead hung rags to a combination of manual counterweight and motorized. They don't have stage eqyipment trained staff now and have no plans to add anyone (though they often do a year or two after opening). All this complicated by a design team and a contractor team.

Hard to know who will emerge as being in charge. Often design team is clearly and loudly told not to talk to faculty and staff. How well the theatre turns out may all hinge on how sympathetic the admin is to the arts versus athletics.
 

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