Advice for new dimmer system for small theater

[garyvp]

We are a small community heater, three sides, with 9' ceilings, and a well maintained control booth. We currently have an NSI system - 24x2.4kw dimmers hard wired to Edison patch panel which manually plugs to 84 circuits in a legacy 30 year old conduit system (NEMA 5-15R Edisons). All wire is 12 AWG with some shared neutrals - but no signs of stress anywhere. We allow on luminary per circuit, and 4 per channel. Balancing is closely watched (We have active metering of all dimmers to facilitate balancing.) We have a three phase four wire 100 amp service but the packs are derated to 80 amps (6x40 0r 240 amps) (50% face plate) - we can drive 50-60 fixtures (traditional Altman fresnels and leicos) at a time and it is plenty for the space. All our fixtures are 500w - so that is the max precut. We use NSI multiplex controls. We also have a separate NSI dimmer and controller for our track lights (4 three color Altmans in series - chews up an additional 50 amps.


I would like to replace it all with a stack of 72 1.2kw dimmers hardwired to the conduit circuits - about one dimmer per conduit circuit –. Single 500w fixture per dimmer but a twofer here and there is ok. I see no reason to change the mains capacity. We want the flexibility of the many dimmers, DMX soft patching, a modern DMX controller, getting rid of all the extension and patch cord, and be ready for LED lighting.

Assume I have under 20k to spend.

Any recommendation would be appreciated? Brands?

 

[RickR]

Prepare for LEDs. Rewire some of your power and patch bay to allow for non-dim circuits. Install DMX distribution. You will need a multiplex to DMX converter and may also require a new light board due to increased channel counts. Buy some medium quality LED units to start learning what they can do. I would consider fixtures in the $500-1000 range for good dimming and more colors than RGB. As time goes on you can get more fixtures that will expand your capabilities while freeing up your existing dimmers.

The reality is that LED is coming with real force. It's still too early for budget minded folks to drop everything and convert. However, you can start the process and gain some of the benefits. Dial-a-gel color changing is very addictive and simple color washes can replace large banks of incandescents. Over the last few years, and the next few, LED prices have dropped and quality improved. Like any new technology there are advantages to waiting and surprises in store but more than anything you will want to get the benefits.

 

[Timothy A. Samuelson]

Prepare for LEDs. Rewire some of your power and patch bay to allow for non-dim circuits. Install DMX distribution. You will need a multiplex to DMX converter and may also require a new light board due to increased channel counts. Buy some medium quality LED units to start learning what they can do. I would consider fixtures in the $500-1000 range for good dimming and more colors than RGB. As time goes on you can get more fixtures that will expand your capabilities while freeing up your existing dimmers.

The reality is that LED is coming with real force. It's still too early for budget minded folks to drop everything and convert. However, you can start the process and gain some of the benefits. Dial-a-gel color changing is very addictive and simple color washes can replace large banks of incandescents. Over the last few years, and the next few, LED prices have dropped and quality improved. Like any new technology there are advantages to waiting and surprises in store but more than anything you will want to get the benefits.

Agreed. Start phasing in now rather than in a few years when everyone is rushing to make the switch. It helps that LEDs are just down right fun to play with and super easy to set up.

 

[garyvp]

Agreed. Start phasing in now rather than in a few years when everyone is rushing to make the switch. It helps that LEDs are just down right fun to play with and super easy to set up.

Thanks, guys…..wasn't ready to take a leap to LEDs due to their expense, but you are making it sound like baby steps are only needed. You have my attention. I am a good electrician, but not sure how different LEDs are powered. I only work in one theater and have no exposure. I assume from your comments that they require full power (hence there non-dimmible circuits - that is easy) and are controlled separately via dmx. Are LEDs daisy chained with 3pin DMX/XLR cable? If I spend a few bucks and upgrade my NSI packs to 3 pin DMX, and my current NSI controller is multiplex or DMX (and has been used in DMX in another theatre) can I operate both from the current controller just to get my feet wet?

Is there a good link that describes who to integrateg LEDs with traditional fixtures.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

We have moved to all non-dimmed circuits with mixture of LED and quartz with solo dimmers (S4 or light pak, but you might consider some Smart Bars or similar) so infrastructure is just power and data - a lot of savings at least in new work. You will want a means to de-power the constant circuits, so power supplies/drivers are not always on.

Introducing LED will push console - at least 2 universes and I'd suggest roomn for more.

The risk may be because power will no longer constrain the number of units, designers will push for more units which cost more and take more time to hand and focus and service.

 

[microstar]

Are you using something controlled by DMX to de-power the constant circuits?

 

[Timothy A. Samuelson]

While any DMX controller can control an LED if it has enough channels, I would suggest looking into the PC option for some of the higher end controllers just to learn the lingo and such. The ChamSys dongle is somewhere around $160 for one universe and the software is free. If you want a larger leap, the Hog is nice and I've got a used one for $5,000. It's a good idea to have a way to turn off the constant power like was mentioned above. Originally, the manufacturers were saying the unit could be powered at all times, but they're starting to see that a 5 year fixture if left on only lasts around 3. Plus, you're switching to LED to save power, but that little screen on the back draws power...turn it off! As for the DMX, you can chain them together, as long as your addresses are set correctly, you shouldn't have a problem. If you set two fixtures on the same address, you're only technically using one unit's worth of data in your allotted 512. For me, the biggest downfall to LEDs was having to address them when everything was based on dipswitches. They've started to disappear and I have a dipswitch calculator on my phone for the occasional unit I encounter.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Are you using something controlled by DMX to de-power the constant circuits?

Not sure this was to my post but yes we do - DMX or network - Echo or Smart switch from ETC or Contact from Strand. Look at Lyntech.

 

[JohnD]

Bill, I am pretty sure microstar was referencing your post AND Google suggested that I was really looking for Lyntec!!!!!
http://www.lyntec.com/
For those playing along at home here is Strand Contact
http://www.strandlighting.com/index...ts&srctype=detail&refno=1705&category=Dimmers
And ETC

http://www.etcconnect.com/Products/Dimming-Switching/Unison-Dimming/Echo-Relay-Panel/Features.aspx

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

There are other DMX controlled relay panels as well. What you have yo decide is are the breakers separate or in the same panel as the relays.

 

[ChamSysUSA]

Hi All:

Just wanted to note our prices on the post from Timothy - our magicDMX full dongle is around $100 and the "5 hr at a time" limited dongle is around $16. not $160

We have a test kit with 3 to 5 pin adapters and a USB drive for around $160 so that may be what is referenced.

We try hard to provide a cost effective way to get to use our software on at least one universe of DMX. You can also use many other USB to DMX devises with our software too. You can even use all 64 universes via artnet or other protocols such as ACN and Pathport Net.

Ok end of infomercial

 

[Timothy A. Samuelson]

I was referring to the test kit. 3 to 5 pin adapters are a must on every job for me. And it comes with a nifty little bag!

 

[ChamSysUSA]

Hi Timothy: I thought you were. I agree the test kit is a cool set of tools to have ready to go.

 

[RickR]

Garyvp - Read up a bit on DMX - you'll want the know-how down the road. ETC has some videos on "layers of lighting" that talk about mixing LED and incandescent, but really they are just lights. Colors can be funny, use your eyes!

From your comments you should know 3 & 5 pin DMX are the same. The real issue is microphone cable is not rated for DMX.

And switching off power to the non-dims can be breakers, morning and night or whatever. Sure remote/auto/timed event is nice but it can be done later as funds allow.

 

[AlexDonkle]

Bill, I am pretty sure microstar was referencing your post AND Google suggested that I was really looking for Lyntec!!!!!
http://www.lyntec.com/
For those playing along at home here is Strand Contact
http://www.strandlighting.com/index...ts&srctype=detail&refno=1705&category=Dimmers
And ETC
http://www.etcconnect.com/Products/Dimming-Switching/Unison-Dimming/Echo-Relay-Panel/Features.aspx

We've used Lyntec for sequencing AV equipment for years and that's what they're known for. With the LED lights reducing the need for dimmers though it's kind of funny their existing products are already very well positioned to compete with ETC and Strand for DMX / sACN controlled relays.

 

[bharrell]

You should look at some samples of good "theatrical" LED fixtures and compare. They are not all the same. Some are better at color, some are better at brightness, some are better at beam distribution. Talk to local dealers/sales reps and take a look.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

You should look at some samples of good "theatrical" LED fixtures and compare. They are not all the same. Some are better at color, some are better at brightness, some are better at beam distribution. Talk to local dealers/sales reps and take a look.

And some actually dim well.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Garyvp - Read up a bit on DMX - you'll want the know-how down the road. ETC has some videos on "layers of lighting" that talk about mixing LED and incandescent, but really they are just lights. Colors can be funny, use your eyes!

From your comments you should know 3 & 5 pin DMX are the same. The real issue is microphone cable is not rated for DMX.

And switching off power to the non-dims can be breakers, morning and night or whatever. Sure remote/auto/timed event is nice but it can be done later as funds allow.

Don't plan to do this with other than switch rated breakers. Breakers not so rated are not designed for that frequency if use.

 

[garyvp]

Don't plan to do this with other than switch rated breakers. Breakers not so rated are not designed for that frequency if use.

Rick R, Bill and all the other guys - Thanks for the great commentary. I have met with a lighting professional and he suggests that we wait until LED technology 'matures' and we have more resources. He agrees with Rick that colors can be funny and dimming of incandescent and led fresnels is varies. Meanwhile, will get some education on LEDs.
The points about microphone cables and breakers helpful. I would definitely have switches for not-dim circuits, although our current dimmers switch on breakers and my electricians have no issue with that - and I can't find SQ D Homelines ( or equivalent) 2x40 rated for switch service so we keep back ups. Hasn't been a problem yet.