Can we convert all of our Fixtures to LED's in the next 5-10 years?

[shiben]

I work in 3 venues daily that all have lighting systems that have gear dating back to the 70's. I live in a world of Strand/Century fixtures, 6k and 12k dimmers, Altman 360s, etc. Two of these venues see about 200 high profile events a year. The other venue sees about 80 events a year. This is a not uncommon situation for 80% of theatres in the country. Massive amounts of money and infrustructure have been invensted in this gear... and the gear still works great. Its not green, but its proven. 5-10 years? Try 20-30.

The only way I see that changing is if ETC or another company comes out with a new LED basecap for the S4 and S4 Par. It would come in two versions. One would plug right into a standard dimmer and be able to dim via the dimmers power in a standard curve. It would also have the same if not better output then a HPL. They would also make another basecap that takes power in and ACN in (its the future after all). That basecap would have full color mixing capabilites with no holes in the spectrum.

No one is going to replace every fixture they own at 2,000 dollars a fixture. Ain't gonna happen. However, if you could sell a 150 dollar basecap for all the fixtures you currently own.. thats a different story.

Basically a new lamp, really, a LED version of the HPL, because IIRC thats pretty much what they optimized the S4 around.

Source 4's are not as common as some people think. Yeah there are a ton of them out there, touring and in newer theaters. But the older theaters still have tons of older strand and altman units. Any for most there is no reason to replace them, especially from a financial standpoint. A lot of venues are just getting by and there is no way they could spend the $200K+ it would cost to convert everything to LED fixtures that will be outdated before they even arrive at the venue. I think there is a good chance we'll see decent adoption rates of wash fixtures in theaters, but replacing ellipsoidals will be a whole different ball of wax.

But they are pretty d*** common. What, 3-4 million of them out there? Also, Im pretty sure if ETC put a 150 LED upgrade on a 300 S4, you would see broad acceptance because the cost factor to replace a 360Q would drop from 2k+ to under 500 bucks. Lots and bunches of people can find enough money to replace 4 - 8 360Qs a year with LEDs for however many years, and thats where the conversion will start taking place.

 

[mstaylor]

I said color temperature and that is partially correct but I suppose I really meant color spectrums. As noted LEDs don't produce the full spectrum, plus depending on how you mix, RGB,RGBA,RGBW or RGBAW, it will make a difference how sets and costumes show up. I remember seeing a clip where the light source was switched, same color but different spectrum mix to get there, and it made the costumes change color. LEDs will be the same thing. The problem is who decides how you get to a color because how you get there will change the look of material and paint.
I know I had a graphic designer as a director once in a dinner theatre. He was a control freak and wanted to approve all gel choices I made. He turned everything down that I had because it wouldn't mix correctly and because he was a graphics guy he knew color. I tried to explain color mixing in light is different but he would have none of it. I odered what he wanted plus what I knew would work. I loaded the plot with his gel and it looked awful. He conceded that I was right and to order the proper colors. I told him it would cost extra to get a rush on the order and I charged him for the extra gel and the upcharge for reordering. I had it cut and ready to go but I wasn't telling him that. I let him sweat. I probably wouldn't dothat now but I was younger and dumber then.

 

[Les]

I probably wouldn't do that now but I was younger and dumber then.

Hah! I think you did fine.

 

[church]

I understand that money is a big factor but look at what everyone is using for conventionals now... Source fours etc only came out with these fixtures in 1992 and they were pretty well widespread by the early 2000's.

Yes and there are still a large number of fixtures in use delivering good service that predate S4s - not everyone has the budget to replace an entire rig

 

[Axislights]

I would seriously doubt it. Unless we have a huge shift in leadership in this country, I see massive cuts in the arts and in training the next generation of theatre professionals. I don't see college theatre's spending $$ on renovating when they can't even make payroll these days. I'm glad to be established in my career, I shudder to think of how difficult it's going to be in a few years to feed your family on an arts degree. (more than it is now :-( My wife is a professor at a local college and I have to buy all the suppiles for her class and I buy lamps for the fixtures, gels and gobo's for the all the shows she does. The department barely hangs in there, even with increased students the arts just don't get allocated the funds. I wish I could do more theatre but I can't afford it.

Axis deBruyn
Lighting Designer

 

[techieman33]

Basically a new lamp, really, a LED version of the HPL, because IIRC thats pretty much what they optimized the S4 around.



But they are pretty d*** common. What, 3-4 million of them out there? Also, Im pretty sure if ETC put a 150 LED upgrade on a 300 S4, you would see broad acceptance because the cost factor to replace a 360Q would drop from 2k+ to under 500 bucks. Lots and bunches of people can find enough money to replace 4 - 8 360Qs a year with LEDs for however many years, and thats where the conversion will start taking place.

I would wager there are a lot more older strand and altman fixtures still in use than source 4's. And $500 for an LED source 4, that seriously made me laugh. A current source 4 is going to cost you $400+ by the time you have the lamp, connector of choice, clamp, etc. And the R and D has long since been paid for, an LED unit will be much higher in initial cost.

 

[derekleffew]

I don't believe the Source Four has topped the two million mark yet, though it may be close. It took eight years to sell the first million.

-----

The ONLY hard-edged fixture I saw at LDI'10 that I could consider using in place of a Source Four was the revEAL Profile, and it lists for $3500.

 

[Gern]

Can we as an industry convert to all LED fixtures in the Next 5 to 10 years?

IMHO
Not if you consider Film & TV in the industry...
First, what I feel could happen in my lifetime, is to get the LED's to NOT look garish, and have a 'truer' white.
Second, what I doubt could happen: replace HMI's over 4K & Tungsten 20Ks!
But maybe...

 

[bishopthomas]

I can't speak for "us" as a whole, but I am doing just that. I don't do theatre and switching to LED's is exactly what I've been doing lately. Today I'm taking 40' of truss on L16's with only 6 S4's and 8 36x3w LED pars. This time last year I would have taken 16 par cans, had to worry about gelling them, powering them, etc... As soon as something affordable comes out to (closely) replace a Source 4 then I'll be all LED plus movers. For my use a replacement S4 WILL happen within 5 years, as well as LED moving lights worth purchasing. They're not there yet but a lot of progress has been made lately and at this rate we'll probably be uplighting the moon within 10 years.

 

[Ric]

I believe that yes it's possible for NEW shows, i.e. Things that don't tour to places with a current stock of lanterns, or are not going to use an inhouse system.

Concerts, corporate events; it's all possible as they are able to adapt and there's nothing else to compare to.

Shows that Tour to a venue with an in house system will not be able to acccurately say 'we want this colour' and know what they'll get.

'Give me a Lee 201 in your LED MultiPARs' ...

There are 2 parts to the issue;
1/ is the colour capabilities of the device being used and it's ability to be matched to an alternate device.
i.e at Venue A your show is plotted on ETC LED Device xYZ; what happens when you go to Venue B and they only have CHINA LED Device QUV? How do you correct for that? Colour Correction Gels for LED's?

2/The control system used to drive the device. It's just as much in control of the colour as the device. Swap control systems (Desk or Computer based) and your colour is gone, and will either have to be manually blended by eye, or use the colour picker that may be available. Either way it's not necessarily going to match the accuracy of the Gel swatch provided by a lighting designer when they originally plotted.

We've been discussing this one at length as our venue is potentially able to within the next 2 years have budget to do exactly this; replace our whole rig with LED.
The real world issues of what our incoming shows need have basically stopped it, as there's no way that we're going to be the first venue in Oz to deal with all the problems of compatibility.
The only way this would work is if all touring venues had the same lighting inventory and the same control system.

 

[blackisthenewblack]

So what should happen, is a sticky post of this article and a mention in your calendars to revisit this and have a good chuckle in 5 years at
a)our naivety at the abilities of lighting fixture developers
or
b)our overly optomistic outlook on the future of lighting.

 

[zmb]

There are 2 parts to the issue;
1/ is the colour capabilities of the device being used and it's ability to be matched to an alternate device.
i.e at Venue A your show is plotted on ETC LED Device xYZ; what happens when you go to Venue B and they only have CHINA LED Device QUV? How do you correct for that? Colour Correction Gels for LED's?

2/The control system used to drive the device. It's just as much in control of the colour as the device. Swap control systems (Desk or Computer based) and your colour is gone, and will either have to be manually blended by eye, or use the colour picker that may be available. Either way it's not necessarily going to match the accuracy of the Gel swatch provided by a lighting designer when they originally plotted.

Doesn't the Universal Attribute Control model on Strand boards (not sure if that is right name) have the board recording "Lee 201" in each cue instead of a set of DMX values and when the cue is called up, based on what's patched to that channel, creates the right DMX values?

 

[bishopthomas]

I have seen an iPhone app that converts from gel to RBG and CMY. I've never used it so I don't know how close it is, but I'm sure it would give a good starting point.

 

[Ric]

I have seen an iPhone app that converts from gel to RBG and CMY. I've never used it so I don't know how close it is, but I'm sure it would give a good starting point.

I may not have been clear enough in my post before.
The colour you see in a LED device is based on values sent from the control system and how each device interprets them. In order to provide colour matching, to a Gel standard, it requires either a matching table in the device or a colour matching system in the control system (desk). If either of the items change (different device or differnt control system) then you're back to matching by eye !

Some modern desks have their own version of a GEl matching system, with the tables for a range of known devices, and some desks have a device substitution system for when the type of LED(or mover) changes. Matching from device & desk combination A&Z, to device & desk B&Y is not yet an option, and can only be done by eye.

Gels still win in this regard. You can specify a colour and people can match to it.

 

[sk8rsdad]

Adding my $.02, even if you can match RGB and CMY with an app, the match likely assumes a white background. Using RGB and CMY mixing to simulate any gel is an imperfect match of any particular gel. LED sources will be missing the full spectrum to some degree, possibly causing undesirable outcomes when the light is reflecting off of an other-than-white surface.

 

[billn]

Adding my $.02, even if you can match RGB and CMY with an app, the match likely assumes a white background. Using RGB and CMY mixing to simulate any gel is an imperfect match of any particular gel. LED sources will be missing the full spectrum to some degree, possibly causing undesirable outcomes when the light is reflecting off of an other-than-white surface.

Exactly. It is doubtful that there will ever be anything close to a full spectrum LED head, just as there as never been a fluorescent lamp that closely matches daylight. And making a decent ellipsoidal with LEDs is going to be very problematic unless they can produce some very high wattage LEDs to get a compact light source.

 

[PeteEngel]

the answer is "Yes we can". LED fixtures can now do everything incandescent fixtures do, at less power. The only thing missing is output, and that is just technology catching up. The facts of theatrical budgeting in the US will keep the incandescent fixtures around for 30 more years. Choose your tools wisely.