Church sound help...good sound a small budget?

[Pastor Robert]

I'm the pastor of a church of about 100 people in Southern Salifornia - but the church looks more like it belongs in New England - Vaulter ceilings (that start at 12 ft and go to 17 ft) in a trapezoid configuration, 30' x 60' santuary - glass windows along the sides. What we have now is better than what we had - a 8 year old yamaha MG16 board, We've got an 30 year old qsc amp, running bose 802 series 2 speakers with the Bass extender - right now they are mounted in on wither side of the sanctuary - they sound ok, but they are somewhat unsightly (espescially with the bass unit in front of the stage. - we're looking at doing some remodeling maybe new Amp and speakers - I don't think we'd need that much (We don't play it that loud). Any recommendations - I've heard too that moving the speakers to the center, especially since it's a mono mix would be good. Any help/ insight/ recommendations would be really appreciated.

 

[jkowtko]

What's your budget, what types of performances/presentations other than the sermon are you planning to run through the sound system ... and can you post a pic of the space?

Without seeing it, if you asked me to outfit the church with something more modern I would probably choose a pair of QSC K12 or Mackie SRM450 self-powered speakers, and a Mackie DL806 or DL1608 -- or Behringer equivalent -- with an iPad so you can walk around while you make adjustments. That's going to run you a few thousand dollars.

If you want to keep the budget low, then your sound board is probably fine to stay with, and look for a pair of smaller Yamaha, Mackie, QSC or JBL self-powered loudspeakers.

One additional benefit of using self-powered loudspeakers, in addition to the amp being well matched to the speaker, is that you can more easily pull these out of the main room and use them for outdoor events or other locations as needed.

 

[StradivariusBone]

There's a lot of questions that need answering here. From your description I'm visualizing a large open space with lots of reflective surfaces (which is great for choirs and acoustic music), but when you start increasing the capacity of your system you can introduce new problems if you're not careful.

It sounds like you have a problem with the speaker placement as related to aesthetic. If you were to reposition speakers you would need to hire a capable rigger to correctly install a center cluster as you've suggested. Depending on the placement, this can help or add to your acoustic problems.

I would recommend finding someone local that has good references to come out and take a look. Pictures here will help, but someone that can put eyes/ears on it and give you an idea of where you need to update can be invaluable. If your amp is working fine and you just want to replace the speakers (never been a huge fan of Bose for reinforcement applications personally) then start there. You don't necessary have to replace everything at once if it's all working and you buy components that are reasonably matched to your current system and take a step towards the final goal. I part time for a church. Churches hate to spend money until they don't like something about the sound at which point cash is hurled wildly with reckless abandon at the problem until it goes away of its own volition. This is not productive or fiscally wise.

Think about your goals. Do you have a rock band service? Do you want one? How many instruments are you using weekly? Do you mic voices? Spoken word or sung? How many inputs do you really need? Do you record the message? What don't you like about the current sound?

System sound can be tuned as well with an EQ. I've heard great systems sound awful until they were properly EQ-ed.

Welcome to the booth, Pastor!

 

[venuetech]

It is my understanding that a center cluster is for vocal clarity. the single point source minimizes reflections making it easier to understand the spoken word. for music stereo speakers give you added depth. but the extra reflections may make a voice not as crisp as with a center cluster. Usually not a big problem.

 

[Pastor Robert]

Thanks everyone for the feedback - you can see the 802s on either side - just imagine he sanctuary continuing straight back, like a hall 13 pews deep on either side. The bass unit is just in front of the pulpit, to the left (blocked by a pew). As far as music goes, we can have anywhere from 1 to 4 vocalists each Sunday (SM58s) , anything from just an acoustic guitar to Guitar, bass, piano, el guitar, cajon - we even did drums a couple of times. We also have some acoustic paneling on the back wall which I think has helped, but that was just a "do it yourself job" - We're looking to upgrade those to make them look better - any recommendations? Upgrading speakers I think would be a good start - and recommendations?
side -

 

[jkowtko]

My gut tells me those speakers are close enough together that you don't need to worry about phase delay issues from left to right.

I think the Bose speakers are your main problem ... Bose speakers in general skew the sound a lot -- it's the design of the speaker. Mount a pair of full range loudspeakers in their place and I'll bet you will be much happier.. And no sub would be needed.

After you replace the speakers, if you still feel that the sound is coming from either the left or the right depending on where you sit, you can consider adding a center fill right in front of the pulpit just off the floor. That will help to center the sound and pull it down for lectures/sermons.

Center clusters might be okay for lecture but not for performance. I personally don't like the concept of a center cluster at all unless you have huge delay problems as in a sports stadium. I'm guessing you don't have those problems..

I sun a simple LR with center fill at the local middle school gym for their instrumental music and choir concerts, spanning a 150 foot width, all on floor stands, and they sound great with no reverb, delay or phase issues at all..

As for speaker choices -- the only speakers I know that sound good are self-powered ... Mackie SRM450 and QSC K12. I own the Mackies and am very happy with them. However I have heard that the QSC have a smoother frequency response and should therefore be more appropriate for a church ... plus the QSC has a physically cleaner look. But they are also more expensive. I have heard Yamaha, JBL, EV equivalents ... but didn't think they sounded as good.

-- john

 

[FMEng]

As much as I like the attributes of self powered speakers, that looks like a tough place to get AC power to. Unless there is a crawl space or attic to that building, conduit is going to have to be run on the wall, inside or outside of the building. It might make more sense to stick with a high quality, passive speaker.

 

[StradivariusBone]

As much as I like the attributes of self powered speakers, that looks like a tough place to get AC power to. Unless there is a crawl space or attic to that building, conduit is going to have to be run on the wall, inside or outside of the building. It might make more sense to stick with a high quality, passive speaker.

I was thinking the same thing. Unless you put the powered speakers on stands near outlets, you're going to have to run power from the looks of things. I can see your speaker wiring running along the top of the wall so I'm guessing there's not much crawlspace above it. I'm a big fan of active speakers too, but to keep things low budget I'd look at passive, mountable speakers. I can't speak to specific models though, there are a lot more knowledgeable folk around here to that end.

Depending on how long your building is you might consider getting smaller speakers and putting fill speakers back about halfway from the stage for the rear portion of your congregation. This would require the purchase of a digital signal processor (DSP) and another amp, but it would allow you to create more even zones of sound. The problem with adding fill speakers is that you have to delay the speakers further away from your stage so that the sound (which travels at a constant speed) will reach all audience members at the same time.

DSP's can be tricky to set up, but the DBX DriveRack series is pretty user friendly and even has a setting that allows you to input the distance between your speakers and it will calculate the correct delay. If that picture was taken at the back of the hall I wouldn't worry about it, but if there's a lot more space behind it you might consider it.