Console Advice

[LPdan]

Hello CB,
I've been asked to recommend a new audio console for a small school theater (~100 seats). They currently have an old analog sound board, and mostly perform plays and musicals with hanging/floor mics, but may add some wireless.
I've been looking at Midas M32R, A&H Qu24, and Yamaha TF3. I've put a few M32s in schools, and have found many struggle with setting mixes using fader flip and using presets.
I own a Qu, and think it's probably a little more user friendly than the M32. I've never used a TF3, but watched a few videos and to me it seemed pretty simple.
A CB post from a few years back said the TF3 seemed clunky and limited.
Looking for comments or considerations that might help with a final selection. TIA!

 

[DaveySimps]

Both the QU and Midas are a bit long in the tooth as far as platforms are concerned. I'd look into the Allen and Heath SQ line. It is a nice update to the QU with a friendly interface. I found the TF3 to be not as great as the others you mention as well. Look at the number of channels you would like to have including future anticipated needs. Don't short change yourself there.

~Dave

 

[TimMc]

I'm not a big "mixing on glass" fan but Behringer is showing pics of a new "Wing Rack" with 24 local inputs. No release date announced but pics seem to indicate production is running.

While the Midas/Behry X/M32 are a decade+ old now, they are still supported and firmware 4.10 wouldn't surprise me...

 

[LPdan]

Both the QU and Midas are a bit long in the tooth as far as platforms are concerned. I'd look into the Allen and Heath SQ line. It is a nice update to the QU with a friendly interface. I found the TF3 to be not as great as the others you mention as well. Look at the number of channels you would like to have including future anticipated needs. Don't short change yourself there.

~Dave

Hi Dave,
Fair points on the age. The SQ looks awesome, just a bit out of price range. Also in this case local inputs are needed rather than Dante.
Having never used it, what are some of the cons of the TF3?
Might end up going Midas route as they won't be doing a ton with monitor mixes....

 

[jonliles]

I am not a fan of the TF series workflow. I much prefer the Qu/SQ and X/M32 wf's., in that order of MFG preference.

 

[DaveySimps]

Hi Dave,
Fair points on the age. The SQ looks awesome, just a bit out of price range. Also in this case local inputs are needed rather than Dante.
Having never used it, what are some of the cons of the TF3?
Might end up going Midas route as they won't be doing a ton with monitor mixes....

The SQ line does have local inputs as well. Stage boxes and Dante stuff are optional. It can plug and play if you have analogue lines or a snake in place already.

The TF3 workflow is what really bothered me the most. I used one several times. It was not intuitive, and clunky. I also did not think it sounded as good as the other models you are looking at. Realizing this is always very subjective.

~Dave

 

[MNicolai]

Having never used it, what are some of the cons of the TF3?

The TF series was Yamaha's reaction to the X32. They did it because they had to, but never really put that much development into it. It's a pretty clunky workflow, especially for theater. Routing options and such that *feel* like they should be easy, are a total nightmare. It's not always obvious how the console is processing something, and it can be frustrating to figure out through process of elimination and jumping between menus and screens, as well as jumping between the physical console and the iPad app. Recently put a few of them into a rehearsal venue for a local rep theater, and both their audio guy and myself spent a few hours trying to figure out why the gains between different busses weren't doing what we expected. IIRC, it was something to the effect of the mix busses were spitting out a different gain than the main stereo buss. We eventually threw our arms up in the air, corrected it in the DSP, and moved on.

In most cases, it's not that much work for someone experience on a QL console to flip to a CL or a Rivage. All of those consoles share very similar workflows and user interfaces, just with some different nuances and capabilities. The TF has always been the odd man out and has entirely different software, user interfaces, and workflow. Most people with experience on other Yamaha consoles will pull their hair out on a TF.

The newer DM3 console is likely intended to kill off the TF series over time. I would not be shocked if there is eventually a DM5 with a few more channels, but it's hard to say. Yamaha isn't just competing with Behringer/Midas/A&H -- they are competing with themselves. So if a 32 channel DM5 starts to cut into what would've been a bunch of QL1 sales, that may deter them from offering a DM5.

 

[gafftaper]

I have an SQ7 at my school. It's outstanding and the perfect semi-pro device to train kids on.

The smaller SQ's are fairly affordable. Don't accept the advertised price, call for a quote. I generally get my audio gear through Sweetwater and they generally best advertised pricing by close to 10% +free shipping for schools. Tell them you are doing competitive bids (also call Full Compass and your local dealers) I bet you can get an SQ7 5 for around $3,600.

 

[spenserh]

M32 is a dead end at this point, MT doesn't seem interested in servicing them in a timely manner.

+1 for A&H SQ line.

I think the biggest problem with the TF line is that you are locked into a specific workflow, great if that workflow fits the gig, but an absolute PITA if it doesn't.

 

[Dover]

I will be the odd man out here and suggest another analog mixer like the Mackie 3204VLZ. Predictable, affordable and low maintenance. A 32ch board might even be overkill if they dont have any wireless. BillESC has a used 24ch Onyx for sale that would make a great board. If all they have is a dozen or so channels of fixed mics, most of the advanced features of a digital board are going to be overkill.

 

[FMEng]

M32 is a dead end at this point, MT doesn't seem interested in servicing them in a timely manner.

+1 for A&H SQ line.

I think the biggest problem with the TF line is that you are locked into a specific workflow, great if that workflow fits the gig, but an absolute PITA if it doesn't.

I understand the dislike for MT's service. But, for the price of an SQ7, buy two X32s and you'll have a full standby spare. I own two X32s and an M32, and never had a problem.

 

[FMEng]

I will be the odd man out here and suggest another analog mixer like the Mackie 3204VLZ. Predictable, affordable and low maintenance. A 32ch board might even be overkill if they dont have any wireless. BillESC has a used 24ch Onyx for sale that would make a great board. If all they have is a dozen or so channels of fixed mics, most of the advanced features of a digital board are going to be overkill.

I had a 3204. I had to open it up annually to spray PCB jumper contacts with DeoxIT to keep it happy, because the tiny pins were tin plated instead of gold. When the pots and switches started getting flaky it was time for retirement. It had a reasonably long life, but not low maintenance.

 

[Dover]

Fair enough, I was thinking from the point of not needing a software update.

 

[spenserh]

I understand the dislike for MT's service. But, for the price of an SQ7, buy two X32s and you'll have a full standby spare. I own two X32s and an M32, and never had a problem.

I could probably buy a dozen used 01Vs for the same price as well, but why would I invest money in long in the tooth, unsupported tech when there is a better alternative?

 

[avare]

This is an eternal question and most people just mumble and go away.

If the "name your product" does what you want today, why would you update tommorow?

 

[macsound]

While I'm sure there are many analog options out there, going digital gives me so many features (as a user), it's a no brainer.
As an installer, Digital gives options like permanently mounting an iPad that's app locked to control volume of specific channels like an 1/8" input and a couple stage XLR inputs.
Then low effort assemblies and non-entertainment events can be facilitated by a teacher using the iPad and they don't need to go into the locked tech booth.

 

[MNicolai]

This is an eternal question and most people just mumble and go away.

If the "name your product" does what you want today, why would you update tommorow?

Needs change. Facilities grow. Components within a system get replaced but it's nice to be able to maintain other existing components (like stage boxes), or be standardized within a given system so even if the console gets replaced, users get a consistent experience moving onto replacement parts. A small black box used for theater today could be used for schoolboard meetings and benefit from an automixer tomorrow. Or, a black box could be an experimental space for students where they can learn the ropes and it's worthwhile having a console that's consistent with a bigger-brother version in a main theater.

Much of the work that goes into designing theaters and systems is not just covering the needs of Day 1. You are anticipating the needs 5, 10, 20 years later. If every high school was designed based on the strictest needs of today, most would be cafegymnatoriums because they need 5-10 years to build a robust enough theater program to put on larger productions.

I'm not taking a hard stand on what the OP should do in this thread -- many consoles are fine enough for a 100-seat theater. In those spaces, you'll probably almost never run more than a few wireless mic's, so it's mostly playback and some vocal/instrument mic's -- but in many cases, especially for schools -- it's easier to get $7,000 approved once than $3,500 twice. You can also always start with asking for the premium option and hold the cheaper-but-still-acceptable option in your back pocket if you get shot down. The politics of procurement require horse-trading like that sometimes.

 

[Crisp image]

If I was to buy a new console I would go down the digital route. Note that I am not an audio specialist but I do use audio gear as part of my job. So for me a digital console gives me the flexibility and the tools onboard (compression, EQ, effects and the list goes on) in the one box. If i need to move the console around then it can be done easily without racks and racks of gear to go with it. If I need a stage box then it can be connected by a cat cable which is easier to hide/protect/run than a 32/8 snake.
Get the one that works for you and your team. Get the best one you can afford and stretch the budget if you can to take the next step up. Remember that a console that costs $7k used once costs $7k but use it twice and it costs $3.5k per use and if it is used 100 days in the first year then it is $700 per use. Use it 100 days over 10 years then it is ...... well you get the idea.
As they say buy good quality gear once cry once but then enjoy the toys for a long time before they have to be replaced.
Regards
Geoff

 

[TimMc]

I could probably buy a dozen used 01Vs for the same price as well, but why would I invest money in long in the tooth, unsupported tech when there is a better alternative?

Hey now, I've got a pair of 01v (original, 60mm faders, silver face, and an 01v96ii) that I still use. The 96ii needs an input opamp replaced (channel 3). The original had the ground mod done to it 20 years ago. Great sound? Eh, "original Yamaha digital" but it works 100%, every time. I'll get the 96ii fixed. I've got several different expansion cards: AES3, analog inputs and outputs, and I think I have a Dante card somewhere. Modern desks like the M32R give me more i/o and mixing channels but the Yammy has the M32 beat on routing and inserts, and frankly the SPX-90/990 based FX sound better than the delays and reverbs and choruses in the Midas.

I think there is much wringing of hands and clutching of pearls (rending of garments to come later) over predicting the future in education. Get what works today, offers some additional i/o capability for expansion, and then spend money on the stuff that really matters: decent wireless mic systems, a robust loudspeaker system with proper coverage, some facility for back stage foldback, and intercoms.