Replacement Makeup Room Lights

[seanandkate]

Maybe I just picked the wrong picture. I'm looking for a row of edison base sockets that I can fill with whatever (the thread sounds like an LED solution might be promising). The biggest problem is that the board of ed and their electricians aren't much in the initiative department. The want to know what make and model of fixture to order from whom. Custom jobs are NOT their forte. So the question that they are asking me, that I am attempting to answer is "What should I order from where?"

 

[MNicolai]

As for a fixture, the only one I know a model and make of is Starfire's TechTrac series. Scroll to the bottom of their spec sheet and they've got the wire guards even.

For lamps, take a look at TCP's cold cathode offerings -- specifically in the 2700K color temp range. Former colleague of mine did extensive testing and research before upgrading all of his house lights, decor lighting, stage LED lighting, and makeup mirror lighting. He was very impressed by the cold cathode lamps on the market and redid all of the lighting in his theater's several dressing rooms with cold cathodes. I can't recall if his cold cathode lamps were from TCP or not, but I'm seeing TCP all over the place lately in theater's that are redoing their house lights. I'd recommend buying a handful and giving them a try.

 

[STEVETERRY]

I think current code requirements would have you put metal cages around each light or each section if you change them.

That is correct. From the 2014 NEC:

520.72 Lamp Guards. All exposed incandescent lamps in
dressing rooms, where less than 2.5 m (8 ft) from the floor,
shall be equipped with open-end guards riveted to the outlet
box cover or otherwise sealed or locked in place.

However, the shockingly antiquated Canadian Electrical Code section 44 (Theatre Installations) contains no such requirement.

Just FYI, there is a Public Input proposal for the 2017 NEC to remove the word "incandescent" from 520.72. The substantiation for this points out that all types of lamps in this application need physical protection from the diabolical dressing room actions of performers.

ST

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

That is correct. From the 2014 NEC:

520.72 Lamp Guards. All exposed incandescent lamps in
dressing rooms, where less than 2.5 m (8 ft) from the floor,
shall be equipped with open-end guards riveted to the outlet
box cover or otherwise sealed or locked in place.

However, the shockingly antiquated Canadian Electrical Code section 44 (Theatre Installations) contains no such requirement.

Just FYI, there is a Public Input proposal for the 2017 NEC to remove the word "incandescent" from 520.72. The substantiation for this points out that all types of lamps in this application need physical protection from the diabolical dressing room actions of performers.

ST

What happens if somehow you do break an LED retrofit lamp? And would this apply to LED lighting that was designed that way - like a piece of LED tape? IMHO requiring a cage around a piece of LED tape is unnecessary and silly. I'm glad there are a few people on the committee that have at least been in a dressing room.

PS - Makes me wonder if the NEC will require a piece of glass or screen under recessed LED downlights.

 

[STEVETERRY]

What happens if somehow you do break an LED retrofit lamp? And would this apply to LED lighting that was designed that way - like a piece of LED tape? IMHO requiring a cage around a piece of LED tape is unnecessary and silly. I'm glad there are a few people on the committee that have at least been in a dressing room.

PS - Makes me wonder if the NEC will require a piece of glass or screen under recessed LED downlights.

The underlying issue with this requirement is "exposed lamps" that invite performers to hang stuff from them or their fixtures. It's a fire hazard with incandescent, but also a shock hazard with unprotected CFL or LED "lamps". I don't think any AHJ would characterize LED tape as a "lamp".

ST

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

The underlying issue with this requirement is "exposed lamps" that invite performers to hang stuff from them or their fixtures. It's a fire hazard with incandescent, but also a shock hazard with unprotected CFL or LED "lamps". I don't think any AHJ would characterize LED tape as a "lamp".

ST

Since I get asked how do they relamp LED fixtures, I'm not sure we'll be so lucky.

 

[StradivariusBone]

Thew pilot light for the receptacles should be in the corridor outside the dressing room. We usually put the switch for a bank of relays next to the entrance door.

I've heard this requirement before, but never fully understood it. Our's are all switched. Though I don't spend too much time in front of a makeup mirror. What do they plug in around these things that'd merit a contactor?

 

[JD]

For example, the popular Cree lamps use a long chain of LEDs running off a 207 volt supply. The pumper circuit that powers them is tied directly to the line, so a physically broken lamp has even more zap potential if you touch it then a regular broken 120 volt incandescent if the supply survives the break.
LED tape lights usually run at a low voltage with an external step-down power supply, so I suspect they would not be a problem.

 

[Ford]

Interesting that this dovetails with PLASA trying to finalize a new standard for makeup lighting.
The Standard includes minimum illumination levels, Color rendition (they mention a minimum CRI of 85), distribution and uniformity, Correlated Color Temp, and maximum illumination (so you don't melt your performers...I guess). Anyway, the committee will be meeting at LDI.

 

[derekleffew]

... Though I don't spend too much time in front of a makeup mirror. What do they plug in around these things that'd merit a contactor?

Curling irons, hot rollers, blow dryers, steamers, coffee pots, hot plates, any of a variety of appliances just waiting to burn down the theatre un-watched and un-attended. Thus the requirement of NEC 520.73:

Each switch controlling receptacles adjacent to the mirror(s) and above the dressing room counter(s) shall be provided with a pilot light located outside the dressing room, adjacent to the door to indicate when the receptacles are energized.

Thus the person in charge of locking up for the night can easily verify that all counter-top appliances in the dressing room are off, without having to enter the space. Makes good sense, but is probably one of the most-violated portions of the NEC as it pertains to performance spaces.

 

[AlexDonkle]

Thus the person in charge of locking up for the night can easily verify that all counter-top appliances in the dressing room are off, without having to enter the space. Makes good sense, but is probably one of the most-violated portions of the NEC as it pertains to performance spaces.

What's strange is that there isn't an exception to the pilot light rule where 2-way switches are used in the hallway (i.e. up is always "on" and down is always "off")

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

What's strange is that there isn't an exception to the pilot light rule where 2-way switches are used in the hallway (i.e. up is always "on" and down is always "off")

IIRC, it use to be poorly written and the switch ended up in the hall, not at all desirable in an educational institution IMHO. Switch in the dressing room, pilot lit in the corridor or space outside so a night watchman or whomever is informed if that small appliance circuit(s) is on. b You don't have to use a contactor but we recommend a 20 amp circuit for every two stations so a chorus room could have a lot of circuits and a contactor or relays just make sense.

But this does point up that the concern always has been fire and not electrical shock. Given the choice of guarded incandescent or unguarded LED, I'd say the LED is safer, and I'd rather that regulations did nothing to discourage it. I'd especially argue that inherently LED lighting - not retro fit l;amps in medium screw base lamp holders - don't justify guards. Wouldn't surprise me if the guard thing started with gas lights.

 

[AlexDonkle]

IIRC, it use to be poorly written and the switch ended up in the hall, not at all desirable in an educational institution IMHO. Switch in the dressing room, pilot lit in the corridor or space outside so a night watchman or whomever is informed if that small appliance circuit(s) is on. b You don't have to use a contactor but we recommend a 20 amp circuit for every two stations so a chorus room could have a lot of circuits and a contactor or relays just make sense.

But this does point up that the concern always has been fire and not electrical shock. Given the choice of guarded incandescent or unguarded LED, I'd say the LED is safer, and I'd rather that regulations did nothing to discourage it. I'd especially argue that inherently LED lighting - not retro fit l;amps in medium screw base lamp holders - don't justify guards. Wouldn't surprise me if the guard thing started with gas lights.

I've worked in a theatre with hallway mounted switches and it wasn't an issue, but it wasn't a school and it certainly could have been. Peoples tendency to play with things they shouldn't seems to be amplified in theatres.

Does anyone know if the new PLASA standard on dressing room lighting may attempt to address this or provide guidelines on selecting LED strips? Protocol had an interesting article on the subject of dressing room lights and briefly touched on CRI vs CQS ratings, but didn't delve too much into details or any specific products.

 

[Roger L. Lattin]

You can get Kino Flo CFLs in both 3200K and 5500K a little pricy but very good quality lamps. Maybe the NEC should put the actors in cages, it would solve many other safety issues!!!

 

[ship]

Talent can and might hang even flammable things like fake feathers or what ever off lamps they find as per a hanger - thus the guards. Don’t take long to go up in flames in being a good policy for at least the cages around lamps. If wet clothing, perhaps it in drip/weap potential is still a good thing to keep around no matter the lamp in use. Didn't read into discussion of dressing room in use indicator lights... policy at the end of the night is to ensure everyone is out. This I would think separate from a problem caused before or during a show.

Understand the minimum CRI of 85% = in other words 85% of the light out of this lamp is B+ for what you will see on stage in doing your makeup.... no problem, this except LED fixtures are only somewhat rated on the CRI scale. They do not really fit this CRI scale in the same way a florescent does. So how is some professional body of theater going to rate makeup room lamps on a unprofessional scale?
Just adding to discussion with some thoughts.

 

[Ford]

Hey Ship,

Both Flouries and LEDs are narrow band emitters. At Cornell University, the facilities department slipped in one night, and changed all of the lamps (bulbs) in the costume shop out with "full spectrum fluorescents" as a part of the Green Initiative. they refused to believe that the lights were inferior for color rendition, as the lamp manufacturer stated that the CRI was 90+ (and they spent a lot of money on the fancy-schmancy bulbs).

It was not until the head of facilities for the entire university was tasked with coming down, and comparing fabrics under different light sources with his own eyes (we showed him fabrics that looked the same under fluorescent light, but quite different in sunlight near the window) that they agreed to at least a partial reprieve for the Costume shop lighting.

Unfortunately, balancing your spectral emissions to line up with the test color-swatches for CRI is pretty easy... and a high CRI does not mean a natural looking light.

The IES has already said that CRI is not an adequate measure for LEDs, and is currently deciding what might be. CQS is in the discussion, but far from a foregone conclusion...

so... there is no easy answer. If the PLASA team required CQS, they would be SOL, as very few lightbulb manufacturers measure or advertise this. they all print CRI on the box, so this is at least something. However flawed it may be, it is at least some measure.

I suspect that in the next year or so, the IES will decide on a recommendation, then lamp manufacturers will start printing this measure on the boxes (so that architects and large institutions will buy their products), and then the rest of us will follow suit.

Understand the minimum CRI of 85% = in other words 85% of the light out of this lamp is B+ for what you will see on stage in doing your makeup.... no problem, this except LED fixtures are only somewhat rated on the CRI scale. They do not really fit this CRI scale in the same way a florescent does. So how is some professional body of theater going to rate makeup room lamps on a unprofessional scale?
Just adding to discussion with some thoughts.

 

[ship]

ah thanks I thought I remember something about that and didn't read back far enough into the post.

 

[tjrobb]

I thought some better - built LED units were roughly continuous spectrum, save a spike or two? (Thinking Philips here)

 

[Ford]

Depending on the mix of the phosphors, you may have a spectrum which appears fairly full. However, even among the best brands (Cree, Osram, Philips) you will see spectrum which does not match natural light. They tend to be heavily tilted toward blue, with spikes in the red and green. There is some overlap in the bottom of the spikes (so it is not completely discontinuous), but without very careful selection, it is easy to end up with something that does not react to color the way that you expect it to. One way to minimize this is to use multiple sources (even from the same Bin), as the small variations will actually help to widen the spikes. The LED manufacturers are also developing new phosphor mixes to help with this... which can be a tradeoff, as they sometimes trade color for efficiency... And efficiency has been the initial quest in LED lighting. so you can get a white that on some surfaces looks natural. However, if you look at the spectral distribution, you will still see that the ratio of colors (relative to each other) does not match either sunlight or incandescent, even if the final mixed color looks similar...

I hope that helped answer your question, and didn't just make people more confused...

-Ford

 

[sk8rsdad]

For more reading, Mike Wood has some excellent articles on color rendering and LED technology.

Color Rendering - Where are we?
How do white LEDs work?