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Sunday knots

Discussion in 'Scenery, Props, and Rigging' started by GBtimex, Apr 4, 2012.

  1. GBtimex

    GBtimex Member

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    Riggers and other theatre folks,

    I am going to teach a class on knot tying to my crew. Some guys are not as good as they would like to be and I am helping them change that.

    I did have a question for all your folks though:

    What is the knot that you use to in a Sunday (rope tie off) for your fly systems?

    I use the Rolling Hitch (the first one) seen here:

    Rolling hitch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I use this knot on the hand line and secure the other end with a bowline or a running bowline. We secure BOTH of the lines with this knot and make sure it's snug before we trust it.

    I have had no problems with this knot and and it has saved my butt more times than I would like to admit. However, I am wondering if someone else has another good knot to use. We are using synthetic ropes (non hemp).

    Anybody have a suggestion?

    Also these are the knots I am looking to teach to my crew:

    Clove Hitch (with Half hitch)
    Rolling hitch (with half hitch)
    Bowline (running, french, water and on a bight)
    Double Sheet bend
    Fisherman's knot
    Taught line hitch
    Truckers hitch (the figure 8 version)
    2 half hitches
    Prusik knot
    the cleat knot figure 8 (proper name?)

    and if we have time the various things you can do with a figure 8 (double figure 8 follow through on a bite, figure 8 bend, figure 8 stopper knot, Double loop on a bight).

    Any other must haves you can think of ?

    Thanks,

    GBTIMEX
  2. Footer

    Footer Senior Team Senior Team Premium Member

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    I sunday is really meant to be a method of attaching a loop of rope to secure a sand bag. Long ago it was replaced with trim cleats. A sunday is not meant to be used on multiple ropes like you would when securing off an out of weight set. The prusik knot is really what you are looking for in this situation.
  3. derekleffew

    derekleffew Senior Team Senior Team Premium Member

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    Counterweight, or Hemp&Sandbag, fly system? I think there's a terminology problem here. A Sunday is the loop of rope, most often tied with a water knot. Most often a stopper hitch (quite similar if not identical to your rolling hitch) is used to tie off a purchase line.

    More terminology confusion? One uses a Sunday to tie a prusik. As far as "a sunday is not meant to be used on multiple ropes," see the wiki definition.
    kicknargel and (deleted member) like this.
  4. What Rigger?

    What Rigger? Active Member

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    Alpine butterfly is helpful to identify damaged sections of rope, to make some types of anchors, and it can still be loaded in multiple directions. Also great if you don't want to tie a knot to haul something up on a reeeeeallly long rope. Also fairly easy to release the knot as well.
  5. mstaylor

    mstaylor Well-Known Member

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    You wouldn't use a taught line hitch in your fly system but it very useful for other things. I use it to focus line arrays among other things.
  6. 65535

    65535 Member

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    Derek the wiki definition states that the Sunday be made of wire rope such as GAC. The way I was taught to tie of a line with a Sunday on a single purchase counterweight system was a rolling hitch tied around both of the 3/4" purchase lines with a bowline around the lock rail. We use a length of braided polypropylene rope. The idea I was told is to hold the two lines together by friction.

    Admittedly this wasn't taught by a rigger, it's worked for us but we don't usually deal with more than a couple hundred pounds. I've come to prefer using a mule winch and tying it off to the cleat on the winch.
  7. GBtimex

    GBtimex Member

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    This is what I was taught as well.

    We use the exact knot and style of rope as well. I have had no issues thus far but I am but a humble TD and rigging is not my specialty.

    I am sorry for the confusion over the term "Sunday" it's just what I was taught was the term for "rope that secures the purchase line when a system out of balance event occurs". Obviously I was misinformed :(.


    Perhaps the better question to ask is this:

    What knot do you use in your theatre to secure the purchase line in an unbalanced load on a single purchase system that uses synthic ropes? Or How do you choose to secure your line set when you are in a out of balance situation? Line Lok? Pipe? Small piece of Rope? Uncle buddy (see page 23 http://www.protechlv.com/catalog.pdf)?

    Thanks

    GBTimex

    GBtimex
  8. venuetech

    venuetech Active Member

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    I was taught that a "sunday" was just that.

    I did have occasion to work with a west coast rigger who came into my high school with a touring dance company in the early seventy's. he described the process of level trimming a hemp line set with what we are now calling a "sunday" (I do not recall his term for it, he may or may not have called it a "sunday" or he may have called it a choker)

    fly the pipe to the floor
    remove the sandbag
    have deck hands stand on the pipe near each line
    pull all lines tight
    near the headblock wrap all the lines with the sunday (choker) hang the sandbag onto the sunday/choker

    The house had trim clamps so we did trim the linesets in much the same manner using those. but i got the distinct impression that given a choice he would rather use the choker.

    These days i just "tieoff" the lineset when i am working with it. using a rolling hitch around both lines, for most work. for heavy work i will add a rack seizing on top of the rolling hitch. which works well since i replaced the manila purchase lines with slippery poly/dac

    I am interested in trying an Icicle hitch that is reported to have more gripping power than a rolling hitch.
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2012

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