Thoughts on LED Retrofits

[ElGusto]

There seem to be a lot of questions about LED Retrofits/Upgrades in this Discussion. Has anyone thought of putting up a sticky thread discussing some of the common issues that keep coming up.

Dimmable LED lamps may seem like a budget friendly alternative, but bring with them a host of issues in their application.

Currently (2015) Store bought Dimmable LED lamps are not going to play well with dimmers. Dimming Curves are less curved and will a have steep drop offs at the low end (0-30%).

• Dimmable LED lamps are also prone to ventilation issues.
• There's a whole mess of CRI vs. Color Temperature issues that should be thought of before undertaking a retrofit.
• LEDs and Gel. A match made in purgatory.

LED lamps vs LED fixtures. Purpose built fixtures can begin to mitigate some of the issues but they are decidedly less budget friendly and often require changes to existing electrical infrastructure and added data infrastructure to be installed.

I am sure I missing a ton of other reasons, but it feel like this is an issue that is going to keep coming up more and more.

That said, LED retrofits are not necessarily a bad idea, just one that is more costly and complicated than it seems at first glance.

 

[Jay Ashworth]

And it's really important to make sure that the relevant Powers That Be understand *what is a performance space*, and that in a performance space, *there is no architectural lighting* (defined as "lighting you can screw with without talking to the Artistic and Technical Directors first"

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

We've done about 8 or 9 spaces with LED downlight and it is a little tricky, throwing in emergency.

These are totally different issues from mains dimming LED retrofit lamps.

This stuff also changes fast - lamps, dimmers, and the inherently LED fixtures.

 

[RickR]

This is more likely a WIKI topic.

I have only one thought on LED retrofits for performance systems - NO! I will use them in architectural systems only under tightly controlled conditions.

I love many LED fixtures, stage and architectural, but don't get them mixed up.

 

[Brian Moon]

We've done about 8 or 9 spaces with LED downlight and it is a little tricky, throwing in emergency.

These are totally different issues from mains dimming LED retrofit lamps.

This stuff also changes fast - lamps, dimmers, and the inherently LED fixtures.

You may want to check out www.rledlighting.com. They have some really nice LED mains dimmable lamp replacements.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

What is cost range and how large is your commission on each lamp? Clearly you are associated with this company and this is a commercial post.

 

[Brian Moon]

No commission, I am the developer for the product and am looking to show other options in the marketplace currently. I am very proud of the product, having spent the past 3 years developing it. I think the cost range MSRP is somewhere in the $700 range, Not sure as I do not deal with the sales side of things. You may want to check with your local Rep.

 

[JChenault]

We've done about 8 or 9 spaces with LED downlight and it is a little tricky, throwing in emergency.

These are totally different issues from mains dimming LED retrofit lamps.

This stuff also changes fast - lamps, dimmers, and the inherently LED fixtures.

Bill
Curious shy it is trickier to deal with emergency lighting using LED than incandescent?

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Bill
Curious shy it is trickier to deal with emergency lighting using LED than incandescent?

Driving the DMX or 0-10 to full, and dealing with reviewers/inspectors primarily. Since we don't usually put houselights on relays, different problems to assure power than basic dimmed lights and branch circuit transfers. Maybe I should have said requires new tricks compared to what I've done for 30 years previous.

 

[MikeJ]

Driving the DMX or 0-10 to full, and dealing with reviewers/inspectors primarily. Since we don't usually put houselights on relays, different problems to assure power than basic dimmed lights and branch circuit transfers. Maybe I should have said requires new tricks compared to what I've done for 30 years previous.

We have dealt with this by having separate "work light" or"emergency lights" speced and installed by the building architecture firm, at least in new construction(usually fluorescent T8 fixtures).That way the "theatrical fixtures" could be utilized separately and are not needed to be available for any other code requirement.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Don't the fluorescents look bad, just like the do in a black box? Or unlit troffers in a ceiling? I guess I'm just opposed to two systems when one can do it. Also, if emergency only, they are unlikely tested often, how do you know they'll work when needed? I'm a big proponent of emergency stuff being exercised regularly. (That's why I propoaed and saw through to acceptance the the code requirement to close fire safety curtains during non production times.)

 

[Jay Ashworth]

Yep. You test them before every performance, right before you open the house. Just like I do with everything else in the facility. What, that's not how everyone does it?

I actually substantially prefer the emergency lighting being separate. I'd like it to even be on a separate panel.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Yep. You test them before every performance, right before you open the house. Just like I do with everything else in the facility. What, that's not how everyone does it?

I actually substantially prefer the emergency lighting being separate. I'd like it to even be on a separate panel.

People don't test things. They don't even look to see if the means of egress are unobstructed, or ignore the obstruction if obvious - like scenery blocking the way out.

As far as separate panel, NEC basically requires that, is constant power is transferred by branch circuit transfer (eg: ELTS) and in conduit separated from non emergency wiring. GDS does it best - separate feed to each fixture and I there is em power, then fixture is on.

Plus we find people don't like the look of fixtures no on.

 

[RickR]

Something that is a bit of a disconnect on the emergency side.

0-10V fixtures routinely go to full when the control system is off. Not 0V but an open circuit. DMX drivers, I guess going from stage practice, make their units go off without signal. For houselights it would be easier if they went on with DMX loss. (Assuming an architectural system is the DMX source.) With RDM drivers it could even be a configuration option!

Of course in the long run, many clients cheap out with bug-eye exit lights.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Something that is a bit of a disconnect on the emergency side.

0-10V fixtures routinely go to full when the control system is off. Not 0V but an open circuit. DMX drivers, I guess going from stage practice, make their units go off without signal. For houselights it would be easier if they went on with DMX loss. (Assuming an architectural system is the DMX source.) With RDM drivers it could even be a configuration option!

Of course in the long run, many clients cheap out with bug-eye exit lights.

Does loss of power to some lighting assure loss of power to the 0-10 control or the power supply for the dmx? I guess you could design an emergency system that for sure would cut power to these in the event of loss of one or more phases to all lighting panels but not simp!e.

 

[RickR]

In general the loss of power has to be detected in order to trigger emergency power. Other conditions can use the control system, it's loss of power that's the issue. I've always gone on the idea that it should be a fairly major event to force lighting on. So (depending of course,) yes, because the controls are on the same general source as the lights. When EM power comes in at single transfer switch then code requires disconnecting normal power to prevent a long list of issues. Multiple ATS does get a bit complex.

Mostly I'm advocating that all architectural fixtures operate the same way. I think that makes everything easier. Defaulting to "On if Powered" seems inherently safer than the reverse.

 

[Jay Ashworth]

People don't test things. They don't even look to see if the means of egress are unobstructed, or ignore the obstruction if obvious - like scenery blocking the way out.

To be brutally honest, that's *their* friggin problem.

I had a pendant houselight drop onto its wires when the lock nut broke, once, and I told the producer (I was SMing) that if it wasn't fixed by the time I walked into the house at 6pm the following Thursday, that I was simply not opening the house.

And I'm a volunteer. And it was my first run with the company.

You're either serious about this crap, or you're not.

(It was fixed, BTW. )

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

To be brutally honest, that's *their* friggin problem.

I had a pendant houselight drop onto its wires when the lock nut broke, once, and I told the producer (I was SMing) that if it wasn't fixed by the time I walked into the house at 6pm the following Thursday, that I was simply not opening the house.

And I'm a volunteer. And it was my first run with the company.

You're either serious about this crap, or you're not.

(It was fixed, BTW. )

I intend and attempt to design for what actually happens, not for what I'd like to happen or what would happen if common sense were prevalent where it isn't.

 

[Jay Ashworth]

Always a good plan, certainly.