Automating Entire Performance With Cubase or Nuendo

[AllInTheBox]

I am with a touring band that's had significant regional success for the past decade and a half. We travel with out own production incuding 20,000w line array sound system and would like to upgrade lighting. We have a laptop on stage at all times that runs a pre-recorded "cilck track" map for the entire set that the drummer monitors to give us studio type tempo consistency and tightly timed intervals and count offs between songs. We rarely play with audio tracks but some musician's parts for the entire performance are pre-recorded using Cubase for times when one must briefly leave the tour.

I am in the process of buying mid to high end LED moving, stationary color changing, and white fixtures. I want to go exclusively LED.

Since we have a laptop running Cubase in perfect sync with the show and Cubase records midi events, I thought this would be a great opportunity to automate a precise, dynamic lightshow that follows each move and dynamic event of each song in the performance. I can record midi or whatever type of sync and commands are used on the available Cubase tracks for perfect sync with each song. What type controller (or specific controller) will I need that will be able to send midi or whatever type sync is needed to be recorded on Cubase for playback of lighting events. My hope is to set up a mock stage performance and follow the audio map for the performance and program lighting events that follow each move and dynamic change of each song in the set list. I would like the lighting events to be recorded on the available Cubase tracks for each song so that lighting will always stay with the song no matter where it is placed in the set list. Any help with what gear I'll need to interface PC with lighting will be greatly appreciated.

 

[renegadeblack]

I'm not quite sure what youre talking about here, but assuming that what you have now is capable of MIDI triggering, almost every lighting console is capable of being triggered by MIDI. With MIDI triggering, this doesn't allow you to specify what channels go up, but it simulates pressing the go button on the console.

If you want to stay with computer based control, ChamSys Ltd offers a usb midi interface for their software.

My advice is only if what youre looking to do is trigger lighting cues with the MIDI from Cubase.

 

[soundlight]

Look at Martin LightJockey software. It has pretty advanced sync and media capabilities, if I remember correctly. I haven't used it personally, have heard direct accounts of it being synced to backing tracks before.

 

[AllInTheBox]

I'm not quite sure what youre talking about here, but assuming that what you have now is capable of MIDI triggering, almost every lighting console is capable of being triggered by MIDI. With MIDI triggering, this doesn't allow you to specify what channels go up, but it simulates pressing the go button on the console.

If you want to stay with computer based control, ChamSys Ltd offers a usb midi interface for their software.

My advice is only if what youre looking to do is trigger lighting cues with the MIDI from Cubase.

It has to be able to send midi events to Cubase which records midi. Then upon playback, it will be automated. In other words a controller that transmits your moves via midi so the Cubase program can remember them and play back along with audio.

 

[AllInTheBox]

Look at Martin LightJockey software. It has pretty advanced sync and media capabilities, if I remember correctly. I haven't used it personally, have heard direct accounts of it being synced to backing tracks before.

Thanks, the songs are already on Cubase with plenty of available remaining tracks on each song. Cubase will also record and playback midi commands. This way the lighting programs will always stay with the song itself no matter where they are shifted in the set list. No synching to another program or separate laptap will be required. Live syncing with different programs can be a nightmare in itself. Not to mention having to revise a separate 90 minute set list if the order of songs is change right before a show. If I record the light show as midi events on an adjacent Cubase track right along with the song itself, the lights will always be with the song info itself. All I need is way to make my manual fader light movements for each song be recorded in Cubase. Then on playback Cubase will send all pre-recorded events back to the controller via midi.

What controller can I use to accomplish this?

 

[soundlight]

Martin LightJockey is a lighting control software, you use it to control the lights with a USB to DMX output device from Martin. It will respond to the MIDI commands, that's what I meant by sync capabilities.

 

[AllInTheBox]

Martin LightJockey is a lighting control software, you use it to control the lights with a USB to DMX output device from Martin. It will respond to the MIDI commands, that's what I meant by sync capabilities.

Yes, thanks. I'm already running a pro studio program during the show that will also record midi events. I could sync another software program but this is where it will get complicated in live context if a quick change in set list is made. If I can simply record midi events on the available tracks of each song in the show, lighting will always be in sync and any change in set list order will not affect the lighting perfomance. The light info will always be with the song itself.

All I believe I'll need is a controller that will send midi info as I make fader moves while listening to the tracks. The Cubase program will then record the midi events and play them back through the controller. I've found some relatively inexpensive controllers (under $500) that do have midi in/out. I would guess that they send commands as well as receive. Does anyone know for sure?

Also, what is the best controller for use exclusively with LED lighting? Are there any made strictly with LED parameters in mind?

 

[soundlight]

OK, let's backstep here for a minute - what are you trying to do with this controller? Any hardware DMX controller in the sub-500 market will be incredibly underpowered, and you will not be able to send MIDI messages from it. These controllers only send DMX and only receive MIDI information to recall pre-recorded scenes, and there is no effects or shape generator in the controller.

 

[AllInTheBox]

OK, let's backstep here for a minute - what are you trying to do with this controller? Any hardware DMX controller in the sub-500 market will be incredibly underpowered, and you will not be able to send MIDI messages from it. These controllers only send DMX and only receive MIDI information to recall pre-recorded scenes, and there is no effects or shape generator in the controller.

Thanks, what you are saying is what i need to know. I'm starting to invest quite a bit of money in LED's. I only have eight color changers and three whites so far but at $1200 a piece it's starting to add up. I've been in the business as my sole career for nearly three decades and understand audio/pro recording well but I know nothing about DMX or lighting for that matter.

I do know this. I can take a cheap sequencer keyboard, press keys and record note numbers, play them back through midi in on a cheap elation controller and it does trigger the LED lights as the sequence plays back....somewhat. Midi info must at least be able to control on/off... right? If midi note numbers will turn the individual cans on and off that's a start. Are you saying there is no midi command for things like color changing?

If scene changing is all midi will accomplish at least I can automate to some extent with scenes. Just need direction on what controller I need to start with.

 

[AllInTheBox]

As far as what I'm trying accomplish... I'll try to explain... I once toured in the early 90's with a group that used three Roland S-50 sequencers on stage. The Roland sequencing software was called "Director S" and simply recorded/playback note numbers in real time. We bought midi compatable dimmer boxes/controller and automating lighting dynamics for 32 par cans on each individual song was a literal breeze. Cans were assigned to note numbers via mini switches on dimmer packs, all you had to do was assign the keyboard to the light midi channel and press desired keys while the Director S software recorded on the same sequence as the song itself. Play back the music sequence and lights were in perfect sync with dynamic changes and desired stage positions. It took no more than 15-20 minutes to program decent automation for each song.

It seems like almost twenty years later there would be something as simple that would work with LED's and a laptop running pro studio software that records midi events. So... what I would like to do is record on/off and color change info for LED lights in pretty much the same fashion as described above.

 

[soundlight]

How many fixtures/what kinds will you be using?

 

[AllInTheBox]

How many fixtures/what kinds will you be using?

So far I have Elation 36 Pro's, Optima ILED's 30's, and Elation LED 36WA's for whites. I would like to get some moving colors as well. I'll end up with about 16 total.

 

[soundlight]

Considering the extremely light load it will place on your processor with that few fixtures, you can use a program like Chauvet ShowXpress with the Enttec USB DMX Pro output and just assign each scene a MIDI note. Then you can program each scene to a MIDI note, and use a MIDI keyboard to record the lightshow in to your Cuebase track. Then do an internal MIDI patch to the ShowXpress MIDI input, and it will fire the lighting cues that you created based off of the MIDI note. The ShowXpress software is actually not that bad of a software package - great for the price. You can download the program for free, screw around with it and see if you like it, and then buy the Chauvet USB DMX interface (X-Factor unit). I was just recently acquainted with this software, and for something like you're doing, it's great, and costs a helluvalot less than any comprable hardware controller.

I'm going with software here because it will make your life a LOT easier in the long run.

 

[AllInTheBox]

Considering the extremely light load it will place on your processor with that few fixtures, you can use a program like Chauvet ShowXpress with the Enttec USB DMX Pro output and just assign each scene a MIDI note. Then you can program each scene to a MIDI note, and use a MIDI keyboard to record the lightshow in to your Cuebase track. Then do an internal MIDI patch to the ShowXpress MIDI input, and it will fire the lighting cues that you created based off of the MIDI note. The ShowXpress software is actually not that bad of a software package - great for the price. You can download the program for free, screw around with it and see if you like it, and then buy the Chauvet USB DMX interface (X-Factor unit). I was just recently acquainted with this software, and for something like you're doing, it's great, and costs a helluvalot less than any comprable hardware controller.

I'm going with software here because it will make your life a LOT easier in the long run.

Ok, I understand but at the risk of sounding obstinate, I'm starting to wonder if I really need any software at all. If you don't mind, I'd like to ask simple yes/no questions..

Since my needs are mainly on/off and color change, can this be accomplished with simple midi note number commands from a midi keyboard using a midi compatible hardware controller as an interface with fixtures?

Or, is the only realistic way to effective change color/on/off status of 16 fixtures manually while recording is to pre-set scenes and record midi note number scene changes?

If this is the case, I can get through an entire show with maybe 24 or so total scenes....probably less if pressed. I really don't think I need any more combinations considering stationary positions of musicians. I would be much more comfortable doing this with hardware rather than trying to run Cubase at the same time as the Chauvet program in the same laptop. Any type of sync, tracking, or drop-out errors in the laptop could be disastrous. With lighting hardware if there are any glitches the Cubase music tracks will be unaffected.

So, is it possible to still do this with a hardware controller as an interface if I keep my commands simple? (By the way I'm truly grateful for the education....)

 

[soundlight]

Yes, you can control a basic DMX controller right from a MIDI keyboard. But yes, you will need to set scenes. However, these scenes are very easy to recall with any MIDI controller that transmits note data. A keyboard will work, but the Behringer FCB1010 MIDI footpedal is used a lot of times so that you can operate the lights with your feet.

If you'll be getting moving lights at some point, get an Elation Show Designer 1. This will allow you the ability to do movement effects and recall a lot of scenes via MIDI as your needs grow. It's also rather easy to program and is a very powerful controller for the price.

If you won't ever get moving lights, get a Chauvet Obey 70 and rock n roll. It responds directly to MIDI notes, but doesn't have the functionality you'd want to be able to record band member positions for moving lights in to the controller.

 

[AllInTheBox]

Yes, you can control a basic DMX controller right from a MIDI keyboard. But yes, you will need to set scenes. However, these scenes are very easy to recall with any MIDI controller that transmits note data. A keyboard will work, but the Behringer FCB1010 MIDI footpedal is used a lot of times so that you can operate the lights with your feet.

If you'll be getting moving lights at some point, get an Elation Show Designer 1. This will allow you the ability to do movement effects and recall a lot of scenes via MIDI as your needs grow. It's also rather easy to program and is a very powerful controller for the price.

If you won't ever get moving lights, get a Chauvet Obey 70 and rock n roll. It responds directly to MIDI notes, but doesn't have the functionality you'd want to be able to record band member positions for moving lights in to the controller.

This sounds like the way for me. Thanks again. When I first began to buy LED's, someone at one of the lighting suppliers set me up with a cheap Elation (monster?) controller. This was before I thought about simply automating with the already running Cubase. The Elation controller was supposed to respond to midi commands via foot controller but turns out it only sees note number commands, not the "program change" commands that the typical midi foot controller sends. I then had to buy a Midi Solutions Events Processor that was supposed to be able to convert note number commands into program changes.

I already have a Rolls midi foot controller but would I be better off just getting the Behrenger? If you know that the Behringer readily sends midi commands that the Obey 70 will read without some type of filtering or special interface I'll order them tomorrow.

Also, this cheap Elation controller I have is very user unfriendly to selecting fixtures and colors with LED paramters. Is the Obey 70 more LED friendly?

 

[NickJones]

Does the software have DMX compatibility? This could make it a whole lot easier.
Nick

 

[epimetheus]

I second soundlight on this. You need a lighting controller/console that will respond to MIDI. Program you're scenes on the controller/console, then use Cubase/Nuendo to send the appropriate MIDI command to select the desired scene. I'm guessing that the more detailed the control you want, the more advanced the lighting controller/console will need to be.

 

[soundlight]

The Obey 70 is fairly close to the crappy Elation controller that you demo'd, I think. They're really not that great.

You might look at the Elation Magic 260 as a controller for your purposes, decently capable, and it has actual fixture profiles so it will tell you what channel is red, green, blue, intensity, etc. It also has movement effects if you decide to get moving lights, and has preset positions as well. Great for hitting band members with moving lights.

I don't precisely know how the MIDI on the Magic 260 works, you'd have to contact Elation on that one - it's setup weird in the MIDI table in the back of the manual.

Most cheap lighting controllers respond to MIDI notes, not program changes. The FCB1010 can send straight note data, so it's preferred for onstage lighting control.

 

[tjk]

This comes a little late, but while looking for something completly different i just stumbled upon ENTTEC - ENTTEC DMXIS

A VST plugin with dmx output. Isn't this basically what you where looking for in the very beginning?

-Thorsten