End of Halogen?

tjrobb

Well-Known Member
With the new construction threads, and elsewhere, I've seen the trend where halogen sources, and the associated dimmers, are no longer frequently installed. At this point, would it be safe to say that for a properly funded new theatre build the stage fixtures would be nearly or entirely LED? In that regard, would the level of theatre matter (HS, community, pro, etc.)? [Apologies if previously asked]
 
Everything I've specified in the last 3 years has been all LED.

The one possible exception is a current project for a rep theater that is doing an off-site rehearsal facility. Given that their whole inventory is tungsten right now and replacing that is not a priority, they are considering dimmers and tungsten with infrastructure for future LED's at their rehearsal facility just to keep everything consistent.

I would say it's good practice to plan for a sparse number of dimmers for things like practicals but it's easiest and cheapest to hit those with shoebox dimmer packs and a DMX cable. If you tried to plan the locations of dimmable receptacles in a new install they will inevitably not be where you need them to be, and for practicals you usually need more channels of low-wattage control -- not a couple 20A circuits scattered around.
 
As much as it pains me to say (for non-personal reasons), I like @BillConnerFASTC 's approach: in any new construction, NO dimmer racks--where incandescent is deployed, single-luminaire loose dimmers (ETC ES750 or similar) are deployed.

Compare the initial cost of a (SourceFour HPL + ES750) to a SourceFour LustrII or ColorSource Spot. Go ahead, compare. I really don't know, and am too lazy to look it up. Now add in lamp and gel costs, and labor.

I admit I have somewhat evolved from my previous (2008) opinion:
All those panelboards and data-distribution devices have to live somewhere--why not conveniently located in a "dimmer" room?
 
As much as it pains me to say (for non-personal reasons), I like @BillConnerFASTC 's approach: in any new construction, NO dimmer racks--where incandescent is deployed, single-luminaire loose dimmers (ETC ES750 or similar) are deployed.

Compare the initial cost of a (SourceFour HPL + ES750) to a SourceFour LustrII or ColorSource Spot. Go ahead, compare. I really don't know, and am too lazy to look it up. Now add in lamp and gel costs, and labor.

I admit I have somewhat evolved from my previous (2008) opinion:

All those panelboards and data-distribution devices have to live somewhere--why not conveniently located in a "dimmer" room?

Grandpa, what are dimmer rooms?
 
But does your theater have a "seal room"?
 
I think it's turned the corner where all LED costs less than dimmers and tungsten in new build - initial costs, ignoring lamps, gel, and energy. Professional theatre and training programs - listen to the users. High schools and small/community college without strong tech curticulcum - all LED.

Existing renovation - tougher to cpare costs but I'm leaning toward all LED. Throw in some ES750s, some wireless DMX, a few extra relay circuits. They can do all and more than in an all halogen world.
 
I think it's turned the corner where all LED costs less than dimmers and tungsten in new build - initial costs, ignoring lamps, gel, and energy. Professional theatre and training programs - listen to the users. High schools and small/community college without strong tech curticulcum - all LED.

Existing renovation - tougher to cpare costs but I'm leaning toward all LED. Throw in some ES750s, some wireless DMX, a few extra relay circuits. They can do all and more than in an all halogen world.

For folks who think dimmers will always exist I will say sure, just ask Kodak how silver based photography worked out for them.

"Well good news for our stockholders - we still have the lion's share of the traditional photographic imaging market; the bad news is that market is about 2% of what it used to be." _ Dr Driveby Quotation, Esq. ASCAPE, SEESICK, MPH, YMMV.
 
I do believe that we have made the turning point, as much as it hurts me to admit it.

The future is now friends!
 
For folks who think dimmers will always exist I will say sure, just ask Kodak how silver based photography worked out for them.

"Well good news for our stockholders - we still have the lion's share of the traditional photographic imaging market; the bad news is that market is about 2% of what it used to be." _ Dr Driveby Quotation, Esq. ASCAPE, SEESICK, MPH, YMMV.
@TimMc Wanna rent any of my 10 Kodak Carousel projectors? At least my CPE Fast-Folds I purchased in the early to mid 1970's are still in better than usable condition.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 
So let me ask this question- our dimmer rack is approaching 30 years old and is showing its age. The upgrade path for it would be somewhere in the neighborhood of $8-10K. Would that money be better spent replacing tungsten with LED? I'm well aware that the cost of swapping out front wash with LED would greatly exceed $10K, but with new construction going all LED it's making me wonder if it makes sense to keep putting money into the conventionals.
 
The last 5 shows in our new space has been 95%-99% LED and ML's. Really few incandescents being specified.

I have just barely enough relays to accommodate the 150 - 180 LED unit hangs and will be buying more when funding allows. I also have 350+ dimmers mostly not getting used, wish I could trade some in.

OTOH, it takes a LOT more time to hang an all LED plot from scratch. I've gotten much better at LW 6, printing labels so we can pre-address fixtures on the shop floor, figuring out power, etc.... but hanging ML and LED is no longer as simple as hang unit, find dimmed power circuit, plug, test as a dimmer on the console. Now it's the above, plus make sure the circuit is a relay, hot up relay power circuits, set the fixture address if it isn't, make sure the patch is pre-loaded, do a channel check on the fixtures.....
 
I'd give it another few years. If you can avoid putting money into the dimmer, you can start buying into LEDs in batches. Assuming the brains of the rack don't die, you should at the very least be able to cannibalize down the dimmer cards as more and more of your fixtures become LED
 
OTOH, it takes a LOT more time to hang an all LED plot from scratch. I've gotten much better at LW 6, printing labels so we can pre-address fixtures on the shop floor, figuring out power, etc.... but hanging ML and LED is no longer as simple as hang unit, find dimmed power circuit, plug, test as a dimmer on the console. Now it's the above, plus make sure the circuit is a relay, hot up relay power circuits, set the fixture address if it isn't, make sure the patch is pre-loaded, do a channel check on the fixtures.....
I've often thought about this... DMX is a fairly slow protocol. I wonder why a standard has not evolved for sending DMX data right through power distribution. Even the old 10 Meg Ethernet can be sent this way and could handle 40 universes. Pretty easy to piggyback the carrier at distribution, then simply set the universe and address at the fixture. With that type of setup it would be as easy as hanging a conventional rig. Just plug and go. No separate data lines.
 
I've often thought about this... DMX is a fairly slow protocol. I wonder why a standard has not evolved for sending DMX data right through power distribution. Even the old 10 Meg Ethernet can be sent this way and could handle 40 universes. Pretty easy to piggyback the carrier at distribution, then simply set the universe and address at the fixture. With that type of setup it would be as easy as hanging a conventional rig. Just plug and go. No separate data lines.

I can't envision that ever being reliable. It might work until one VFD in an HVAC unit turns on, then no data.
 
I've often thought about this... DMX is a fairly slow protocol. I wonder why a standard has not evolved for sending DMX data right through power distribution. Even the old 10 Meg Ethernet can be sent this way and could handle 40 universes. Pretty easy to piggyback the carrier at distribution, then simply set the universe and address at the fixture. With that type of setup it would be as easy as hanging a conventional rig. Just plug and go. No separate data lines.

Yeah, I forgot to mention that for every fixture, you are either doing PowerCon pass-thru, or Lex E-String connections for power, then adding DMX. It's twice as long to get cabled. And you typically don't have the same variety of PowerCon cables that you've had for decades with 2P&G, so the fixtures that are further apart than your 6ft & 10ft PC cables, now need a different power cable method. Or more 25ft PC pass-thru's. We are getting smarter as we work with the gear but there's no way it's faster.

This is compounded by a LOT of LED gear available (for us), so LD's are plotting the same number of LED's as they used to hang as conventionals and why not ?, greater variety while designing. All good but better plan on twice the load-in time for electrics.
 
I can't envision that ever being reliable. It might work until one VFD in an HVAC unit turns on, then no data.

I can, but not with regular mains power. As LED's continue to evolve to require less current and PoE techniology gets better, I would not be surprised to see some type of power/data combo cable capable of a single cable with network using star topology. However, I'd bet a box of donuts that wireless data and IP based devices will become the norm with decentralized mains power before PoE lighting has a chance to become a thing. I also wonder what the potential top end of PoE wattage is with ethernet cable being as small gauge as it is.
 
OTOH, it takes a LOT more time to hang an all LED plot from scratch.

But think of all the time you save on cutting and inserting gel. :)

There have been powerline systems as early as the 60s. Dirk Epperson's thesis project was a dimmer on every light and data over power lines. I assume wireless will probably beat powerline today but a separate system entirely - lower voltage to reduce wiring requirements - does seem to have possibilities. One architectural lighting company - Pathway (not the ones we know) - does LED down lights and uses a central rack mount driver (EldoLED) with Class 2 wiring I think. That would not be quite as simple for RGB+++ lighting but a concept.

Strad - I suspect in my and your lifetimes it will be less expensive to stay tungsten. Anytime I look at renovation, unless all new branch circuits and feeders and having to build a dimmer room, its very hard to justify the conversion. You would have to do a pretty careful study to see how much more it would cost to convert, but probably significant. An overtime conversion spreads it out but probably increases the cost. So just look at all at once - move to relay panels and all LED fixtures - may not need to be 1 for 1 if some are for color of course. Figure out what you spend on lamps and gel (probably disappointingly not much in this context).

My guess is it might in sya 10 or 20 or 50 years not be so bleak - especially if the tungsten lamps are not available - but still hard now.
 
I've often thought about this... DMX is a fairly slow protocol. I wonder why a standard has not evolved for sending DMX data right through power distribution. Even the old 10 Meg Ethernet can be sent this way and could handle 40 universes. Pretty easy to piggyback the carrier at distribution, then simply set the universe and address at the fixture. With that type of setup it would be as easy as hanging a conventional rig. Just plug and go. No separate data lines.
DMX-512 is slow when compared against modern ethernet, but for it's class, RS-485, it's pretty peppy.

Most powerline protocols I recall seeing were around 9600 - way, way slower. And most of that stuff only worked well in residential settings.



Well, burn my biscuits, there's some "ethernet" adapters for that. With seems pointless given the sate of WiFi.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back