Clamping LEDs to Ceiling Tiles
- Thread starterStageTech620
- Start date
Mac Hosehead
Well-Known Member
I have seen people use these, which is the scissor clamp without the stud:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/co...GwY9EAQYBCABEgKUjvD_BwE&is=REG&m=Y&sku=862032
I have seen 1/4" threaded barrels adapted to the rod to attach rings and other light-weight items.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/co...GwY9EAQYBCABEgKUjvD_BwE&is=REG&m=Y&sku=862032
I have seen 1/4" threaded barrels adapted to the rod to attach rings and other light-weight items.
We use these stud to thread adapters on a standard scissor clip. They come in at least two different sizes.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/824403-REG/Impact_ca_102_Rapid_Baby_to_3_8.html
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/824403-REG/Impact_ca_102_Rapid_Baby_to_3_8.html
How big are these pars we're talking about? If you look at the standard rigging of a drop ceiling I'm usually surprised it will support it's own weight, let alone the weight of additional fixtures. I'd certainly be cautious about what you are looking to hang before encouraging you to do anything. If it's a standard size cheapo par with a 1/2" mounting hole, and you're confident about the rigging being safe, it sounds like you want a TVMP, unless I'm misunderstanding the question?
I hate the idea of rigging to T-bar.
IF you do it make sure you are within inches of a suspension wire. Yes, companies make scissor clips for hanging track lighting and specialty spot lighting but those applications spread the load over a larger area or are extremely light point loads.
Please exercise extreme caution or find another way, if at all possible.
IF you do it make sure you are within inches of a suspension wire. Yes, companies make scissor clips for hanging track lighting and specialty spot lighting but those applications spread the load over a larger area or are extremely light point loads.
Please exercise extreme caution or find another way, if at all possible.
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
I agree with the cautions on hanging anything that could possibly hurt someone if it fell from ceiling girds but if you do, use the runners, not the cross bars. One way on the grid is hung and usually toed at the walls. The cross bars are simply set in a slot of the runners.
Anything heavier than an architectural downlight - say max 5 pounds - really should not be hung from t-bar in my opinion.
Anything heavier than an architectural downlight - say max 5 pounds - really should not be hung from t-bar in my opinion.
@BillConnerFASTC I suspect you'll find codes require lighting fixtures in T-bar / lay-in tile ceilings to be independently supported by chains, typically "Jack chain" with the chain lengths adjusted not merely for secondary safeties but to support the weight of the fixture. Back in my IBEW construction electrician days, I recall installing fixtures where it was legal to support the fixture independent of the grid and tiles but to support decorative / light weight trim / finish rings from the tiles themselves.
EDIT: Similar rules were in place for monitor / page speakers and their transformers and back-boxes although manufacturers often offered light weight decorative / acoustically transparent grilles which were legal to support from rigid lay-in tiles. Conduit, even EMT, has never, to my knowledge, been legal to support from tile grids. You were often permitted to clip EMT and / or metal flex to vertical hanger wires with purpose designed and approved Kaddy-Klips but never, to my knowledge, in any manner where the conduit or flex added weight to the ceiling's supporting grid.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
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BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
@BillConnerFASTC By "troffer", are you referring to typical 1, 2, 3 or 4 lamp four foot fluorescent fixtures which were commonly installed as continuous rows with their ends bolted together, coupled by chase-nipples and fed via temperature rated fixture wire? Certainly in my province where we spell colour with a "U", we ALWAYS had to provide independent support via jack-chain, usually one vertical chain every four feet spread to two short chains for the bottom four or five links where the chains were looped into the fixtures at two adjacent points beside each other and about four or five inches apart. I can recall a couple of total gut renovation projects, one in a hospital the other a university, where the general's laborers tore out the ceilings to gain access for everyone, (HVAC, plumbers, fitters, electricians) and the supporting chains held the original old fluorescents in place to serve as work lights until new fixtures were installed. I can only attest to my province of Ontario. Perhaps @Dionysus will chime in?
Found that EDIT button yet @BillConnerFASTC ? @GreyWyvern , how's by you?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
I rarely see them in continuous rows anymore and they are LED today. 2x2, 2x4, 1x4, all troffers.
They might be required to be independently supported by some local authorities, maybe in earth quake prone areas. Pretty sure the NEC does not require this and actually exempts them from being attached to grid if independently supported. They do have to be anchored to ceiling grid if using that for support.
They might be required to be independently supported by some local authorities, maybe in earth quake prone areas. Pretty sure the NEC does not require this and actually exempts them from being attached to grid if independently supported. They do have to be anchored to ceiling grid if using that for support.
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@BillConnerFASTC The last new theatre I was working on, new construction from the foundations up, was using a mixed bag of LED's and T5 fluorescents. The LX foreman was NOT enjoying the then new and trendy T5's at all. He'd no sooner get a room or corridor fully lamped and he'd have to send someone back to replace burnouts. The architect LOVED the look of the new T5's but the electrical contractor couldn't get off the job fast enough. The T5's were failing EXTREMELY rapidly. Best guess? Too little surface area being driven too hard in an attempt to put out the same illumination as the old T12's. The year was 2011. At that point we were seeing LED's primarily in exit signs, elevator call buttons and decorative fixtures. Also fitted into stair tread nosings.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
Dionysus
Well-Known Member
Troffers are usually supported by the T-BAR in at T-BAR tile ceiling. Depending on when it was installed and the AHJ there may or may not be a jack-chain "safety" installed to the structure above. Sometimes with or without slack.
For a long time (until recently) here (Canada/Ontario) this jack-chain was required to be on at least two corners of the light. This requirement has been recently dropped someone told me, however I haven't installed any since this has apparently changed.
When I was last installing these lights, we were actually required to fully support from the chain. So I've seen some changes locally to be sure. I found this a pain as sometimes it was hard to do keeping everything pretty, so erred on the side of resting on the T-Bar.
Typically we don't use nipples to join them in T-BAR (anymore, however it was done in the past). It is far more common to wire together into the junction plate on the back of the fixture with BX (AC90) jumpers. First from the conduit junction box, then from fixture to fixture. Leaving enough slack to move the fixture to the next space over so lights can be moved during construction. Almost never do you see continuous rows these days anyways.
I still like the idea of having Jack chain support to steel on fixtures regardless in T-BAR ceilings. Ive seen too many poorly installed, or ripped out before electricians arrive, etc. Also they aren't the strongest and structural things in the world, however they have gotten much better of late. Perhaps a change in local building codes I am not aware of.
Yes typically the jack chain holds the lights before T-Bar install if the electricians arrive first, or while during renos. Especially if they want to keep lighting in place. However Ive done a lot of renos where we completely ripped out and replaced all the lighting.
In 347v lighting it is required to have a "disconnecting means" "at the device", which typically means that you can pop open the junction on the back of the light and pull out the wires and there is an actual connector you can pop. like this one http://www.idealindustries.ca/produ...minaire_disconnects/powerplug_stnd_3-wire.php
(In Canada 347 volt lighting for flourescents is very common in certain types of large building with 600v power, like hospitals, etc.).
We take a similar approach with 120v lighting, and use marettes instead. So often when we temporarially take a light down, or pre-wire we have the wires ready to go for the next light. Greatly speeds install time.
Instead of continuous rows usually we see offset pairs. And yes seeing more and more LED these days, depending on the building. Because really with inductive loads in a building, flourescents just get the job done. Thats right using your lights to adjust your building's power factor is a THING! And LEDS can't do it!
EDIT:
Looking at the OP, yes there are several types of T-BAR clip. Make sure you use the correct one for your use. Also, I suggest putting a hole in the tile above beside the T-Bar and running Jack-Chain up to structure. You really don't want that coming down on someone's head. Never trust those clips. But they do work.
Also look where the wires will be, sometimes you'll find they are off-centre (good) or on-centre (you'll be making a new hole or cutting the t-bar).
Usually use these ones: https://www.grainger.com/product/B-LINE-by-Eaton-Clip-4RHH2
Again this is for fixtures hanging DOWN from the T-Bar, not above the t-bar (or resting on it)
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videographer
Member
Another vote for the Panavise clips. They are a bit of a PITA to install, and take at least four hands to get a light onto, but I'm currently hanging 16 ETC LED Source Four Minis off a suspended ceiling grid (along with four ADJ dimmer packs) and they are solid as a rock. (and so is the grid - it is remarkably solid.) You will need washers to mount the lights with though. The Source Four Minis weigh almost nothing, so the Panavise is perfectly adequate to the task.
Chris Pflieger
Well-Known Member
So, do you still run a safety cable? If so, then to what?
That was my next question.
More unsafe B.S. waiting to drop on the heads of the unsuspecting.
I just spent 4 days working a major aviation safety conference; the cavalier attitude I observe about safety (except in some of the highest levels of touring operations) in our industry is appalling.
I guess when the lawsuits get too painful attitudes will change. I don't want to see anyone injured, killed, or property damaged but that seems to be what it takes to get folks temporarily away from cutting corners on safety.
Tim, I can agree to a point, however; in a lot of cases I don't feel it's a "cavalier attitude" as much as it is a lack of training. "Hey they make these things for hanging things on t-bar track, why shouldn't I use them?" Relying on manufacturers of these products to print out safety warnings and full instructions on proper use and application is apparently not going to work. All T-bar clips I've ever used have come in bulk packages with no information on Application only installation. < I've typically used them to install Track lighting for Temporary art installations, spreading the load over a much larger area as they were intended.>
I appreciate the OP coming here to ask about adapters and the responses that bring up the safety issues. I'm guessing that his original inquiry had nothing to do with a cavalier attitude.
videographer
Member
Yeah, to the structural truss a foot above the ceiling that holds up the next floor. You guys haven't worked in remote TV much, I guess; these things...
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/863599-REG/kupo_kd302112_baby_drop_ceiling_adapter.html
...are in every ENG shooter's light kit, and get used all the time, almost always without safety chains. Is it as safe as possible? No, probably not, but tell it to the management that won't even send a sound guy along, much less a grip or lighting guy.
One more thing before you judge my install: Have you ever picked up an ETC LED Source Four Mini? These things weigh less than three pounds, and the scissor clips are more than a match for them. I inherited a "studio" with many huge planning errors, and I have to make the best of it. A grid was never going to be in the cards.
Without specifically pointing fingers at any individual here - so you're all on board with "git 'er done" instead of "how do I accomplish my objective without risking death or injury to employees or guests in foreseeable scenarios"?
@Van - please note that I am not leveling a personal attack when I say "... cavalier attitude about safety..." as I see it often and *especially* in non-touring theatre work. We do things in ways that would get many industrial operations shut down or heavily fined... and it's not just architectural or structural issues, it's the complacency, sloth and lack of professional growth that drives these attitudes that I find particularly questionable, sketchy, or philosophically repugnant.
While I'm sympathetic to the various limitations, restrictions and other obstacles encountered in our work I think it's short-sighted, in the long term, to accept those limitations, restrictions and other obstacles as the final arbiter of our professionalism particularly in regard to safety.
@Van - please note that I am not leveling a personal attack when I say "... cavalier attitude about safety..." as I see it often and *especially* in non-touring theatre work. We do things in ways that would get many industrial operations shut down or heavily fined... and it's not just architectural or structural issues, it's the complacency, sloth and lack of professional growth that drives these attitudes that I find particularly questionable, sketchy, or philosophically repugnant.
While I'm sympathetic to the various limitations, restrictions and other obstacles encountered in our work I think it's short-sighted, in the long term, to accept those limitations, restrictions and other obstacles as the final arbiter of our professionalism particularly in regard to safety.
