Degree in Lighting?

[deltaleader]

I am now a HS senior, and I would love to make Lighting my profession. However, my parents are strongly putting it that they want me to get a more foundational degree in college, such as in engineering, and do lighting as a job after. My question is, is it common for venues to hire LD without a Degree of any sort in theatrical design? Is it heard of to have someone with an engineering degree to do theatrics?

Thanks in advance!

 

[DuckJordan]

Actually Most theaters could care less what degree you have they want to see the work you've done. So yes to your last question, I've seen someone with a psych degree be technical director. He didn't get the job based upon his degree but rather what he had done in the past with performances.

 

[Footer]

Actually Most theaters could care less what degree you have they want to see the work you've done. So yes to your last question, I've seen someone with a psych degree be technical director. He didn't get the job based upon his degree but rather what he had done in the past with performances.

In the music world your right, in the theatre world your wrong. It is hard to impossible to work your way up to being a broadway designer with a bachelors degree let alone a masters. It only takes 5 minutes of looking at artsearch to figure out without a degree you won't get a call. Hell, I have lost jobs because I don't have a masters.

Here is the question for the OP... do you want to DESIGN lighting for dance, theatre, and musicals or do you want to hang lights/plug them in/make them turn on/point them at the stage. If you want to design, it will be VERY hard for you to break into the design world without the portfolio that an undergrad and graduate theatre or art education will give you. If you want to plug things in, an engineering degree would be great but would be overkill unless you go work for either a manufacture or an installer. Even then, you will be over qualified.

You go to college for theatre for two reasons. One, it gives you a place to screw up. Two, it gives you a place to try weird things that will lead to you screwing up. You are paying for the opportunity to work on a stage and learn in an environment that your next meal does not contend on how fast you get the show up. You are also paying for the opportunity to build a portfolio that you can then take out to get gigs or continue your education. No one will ever call to get a copy of your transcript, they won't care. What they will care about though it what you have on your website and in your portfolio. You also gain references that know you and can hopefully speak highly of you. They will also possibly be able to set you up with a gig or two or get you connected to people who can help you find work.

The design world is really tough to break into. You really have to have everything in your favor to make it.

 

[sstolnack]

I've heard that it's a better idea to get a BA instead of a BFA because it offers a wider base of education. Is that true? I'm also a senior in HS looking to go into lighting. Right now I'm looking at colleges offering a BA in theatre design/technology or similar, and I'm also worried that if I choose a college that has both BFA and BA programs, the BFA students will get more opportunites to design, and the BA students will get less hands on experience. Is that a valid concern, or does it not really matter what degree you're going for?

 

[LXQuito]

It's a valid concern, sstolnack. As a graduate of a BFA theatre design program (a the University of Alberta, one of the few programs in the world that doesn't force a major in one of the four types of design), I worked alongside with BAs but their hands-on time in the theatres was very limited compared to mine. TDs in many houses will be looking for the BFA if not the MFA in theatre design / scenography, before they even consider looking at your portfolio.

The BA does offer a wider base and a deeper grounding in theatrical theory and history, as well as dramaturgy, but these things are less useful to you as an LX designer or LD than the actual hands-on time in the theatres working with the pros who teach at theatre institutions. My course was about 25% theory and 75% application, where the BA was almost exactly reversed.

Just my 2 cents. I grew up in theatres backstage and went into my program with a very solid technical backing, but I still needed the piece of paper from the University to prove to the TDs that I could do what I said I could; I'm now a scenographer in residence, and without the degree I would never have had even the opportunity to talk to the TD who gave me the job. Also, as Footer points out, the University or College structure gives you a very forgiving place to screw up in.

Design is a very competitive world - just a word of warning - and without the degree you'll be passed over for everything but community theatre, which, although fun, is no way to put food on the table. A solid BFA in design also gives you enough background to work in other fields, which helps greatly when the theatre jobs dry up, as they periodically do.

 

[sstolnack]

So you're saying that a BFA will get more respect? I thought I saw a CB post a while ago that pretty much said the opposite, that they wouln't hire anyone with a BFA because of the narrow education that they would have with that.
Another reason I want a BA is that there are fewer colleges that are good theatre schools that only offer BAs, which limits the number I have to look at... After auditioning at the International Thespian Festival in Nebraska, I got 28 callbacks, and it was rather overwhelming. Do you have any other pointers for what I should be looking for or avoiding?

 

[Footer]

So you're saying that a BFA will get more respect? I thought I saw a CB post a while ago that pretty much said the opposite, that they wouln't hire anyone with a BFA because of the narrow education that they would have with that.
Another reason I want a BA is that there are fewer colleges that are good theatre schools that only offer BAs, which limits the number I have to look at... After auditioning at the International Thespian Festival in Nebraska, I got 28 callbacks, and it was rather overwhelming. Do you have any other pointers for what I should be looking for or avoiding?

I have a BFA in Design Tech with an Emphasis in Lighting Design. My wife ( [MENTION=6409]MrsFooter[/MENTION] ) has a BA with a minor in dance. She was not a technical theatre emphasis. We both graduated from the same school the same year. She is the lighting director for a two venue road house. I am the TD of a semi-professional community theatre and ATD at an opera company. We both make a good living doing what we are doing. It has been much harder for her to get to the point that she is with the job she is in. She has had to learn a lot of stuff on the job that she would have learned in school.

I have never heard anyone say "don't hire a person with a BFA". A BFA is a more specialized degree. If you can work in the field that you are trained in, your set. However, many programs will only train you in one area. Some will train you in many. When I was in college I spent at least 10-15 hours a week welding. I spent half of freshman year sewing. I designed scenery for one show. I designed lighting for 3 mainstages plus a plethora of other things. I wardrobe supervised. I painted. I did everything I could. Because of that, I can do a variety of things on stage which keeps me employed and my rent paid. Not all BFA programs are like that. My degree emphasis was technical lighting design. My best paychecks come from welding and technical direction.

I don't think you should limit yourself to what your degree will be. Look at all schools and see what you like/dislike. You could miss a school you would really enjoy.

Also, one of your (former) fellow CB'ers who was in your exact position 2 years ago and decided to go the BA route is now starting college at a different school this year as a BFA design major. After he got to the school he originally chose he found that he was not challenged enough at the school. At the urging of the faculty and other students at that school, he decided to go after a BFA at one of the top design schools in the country.

 

[deltaleader]

Well, how would someone fare without a degree in other types of lighting, say concert lighting, or tv? Where maybe the occasion doesn't rely on more design but rather on technical skill?

 

[shiben]

I have a BFA in Design Tech with an Emphasis in Lighting Design. My wife ( [MENTION=6409]MrsFooter[/MENTION] ) has a BA with a minor in dance. She was not a technical theatre emphasis. We both graduated from the same school the same year. She is the lighting director for a two venue road house. I am the TD of a semi-professional community theatre and ATD at an opera company. We both make a good living doing what we are doing. It has been much harder for her to get to the point that she is with the job she is in. She has had to learn a lot of stuff on the job that she would have learned in school.

I have never heard anyone say "don't hire a person with a BFA". A BFA is a more specialized degree. If you can work in the field that you are trained in, your set. However, many programs will only train you in one area. Some will train you in many. When I was in college I spent at least 10-15 hours a week welding. I spent half of freshman year sewing. I designed scenery for one show. I designed lighting for 3 mainstages plus a plethora of other things. I wardrobe supervised. I painted. I did everything I could. Because of that, I can do a variety of things on stage which keeps me employed and my rent paid. Not all BFA programs are like that. My degree emphasis was technical lighting design. My best paychecks come from welding and technical direction.

I don't think you should limit yourself to what your degree will be. Look at all schools and see what you like/dislike. You could miss a school you would really enjoy.

Also, one of your (former) fellow CB'ers who was in your exact position 2 years ago and decided to go the BA route is now starting college at a different school this year as a BFA design major. After he got to the school he originally chose he found that he was not challenged enough at the school. At the urging of the faculty and other students at that school, he decided to go after a BFA at one of the top design schools in the country.

Just to add to that, my current BA program allows people who want them to have oprotunities to design, build stuff, sew, run shows, etc. Its all very dependent on the place your at, and how much time you want to put into it, I suspect. I want to learn to sew, so I take costume classes, even though they have nothing to do with lighting design, what i want to do.

 

[sstolnack]

Ok, I'll look into some BFA programs as well. What about size of the school? I'm looking for a place that I would get the opportunity to design mainstage shows as an undergrad, which means one with no grad program pretty much. But do people care about the name of the school? Would it be worth it to go to a bigger school with a good rep, and not get as much hands on experience, or a small school that isn't very well known and get a ton of experience?
And also, if anyone has names of good colleges, I'm totally open to them, almost anywhere in the country. (just not super far south). I'm looking into Southern Oregon University, University of Evansville, and a few other smaller ones too.

 

[Footer]

Ok, I'll look into some BFA programs as well. What about size of the school? I'm looking for a place that I would get the opportunity to design mainstage shows as an undergrad, which means one with no grad program pretty much. But do people care about the name of the school? Would it be worth it to go to a bigger school with a good rep, and not get as much hands on experience, or a small school that isn't very well known and get a ton of experience?
And also, if anyone has names of good colleges, I'm totally open to them, almost anywhere in the country. (just not super far south). I'm looking into Southern Oregon University, University of Evansville, and a few other smaller ones too.

There are a few BFA programs out there that have the name. North Carolina School of the Arts and Carnegie Mellon are two of those. I would stay away from schools with a grad program if you can.

 

[metti]

There are a few BFA programs out there that have the name. North Carolina School of the Arts and Carnegie Mellon are two of those. I would stay away from schools with a grad program if you can.

CMU does have a grad program although their undergrad BFA students also get to design actual productions. I would also add Purchase to the list of highly regarded BFA programs.

 

[bdkdesigns]

The schools already mentioned are obviously great. Since you mentioned an Oregon school, not too far away from that is The University of Montana. Having just got my masters from there last year, I can tell you that they try to get the students heavily involved. Many undergrads walk away with multiple design opportunities and the university is consistently named in Princeton's Review of the best colleges. It used to be an URTA school until budget cutbacks forced them to stop their membership. Believe me, it took a lot for me to decide to move from Florida to Montana for grad school.

 

[gafftaper]

I want to back up a little bit and point out some things I think are key in this whole discussion and often missed. In your typical high school program, the "lighting guy" designs, hangs, circuits, programs, and even does maintenance. In the real world those jobs are broken up and done by multiple people in a variety of ways. What jobs you are expected to do will vary widely depending on the size/budget of the theater you work at. Generally the larger the budget the more specialized the work is. Here are some examples:

-"resident lighting designer" at a small community theater/community college. Your job is very similar to what you are used to in high school. You will be expected to be able to design, train a crew how to hang lights (and hang them yourself if you can't find a crew). You'll program the light board and hopefully find a trainable monkey to run it.

at the other extreme

-Broadway lighting designer. You design lights and only design lights. You NEVER, EVER, touch a light... there could be a lawsuit from the union if you touched one.

In between, there are all kinds of variations from light board programmers (sit at light board with the designer and makes all adjustments requested) to deck electrician (does lighting work mid show, moving things around on stage).

So how do you know what you really want to do? It would be terrible if you went to school for years to become a designer only to find out you aren't very good at it and really should have focused on being an electrician. The truth is most high school are just scraping by in the tech department. It's very rare to find a high school that is training their students in a way that you have any sense of what these jobs are like in the real world. Because of this many of us around here agree that the best strategy is to find a university with the best broad training you can find. Do costume work, paint, sound, stage manage, EVERYTHING. Don't specialize for as long as possible... preferably not until grad school. This way you'll get to experience a more accurate representation of what jobs are like and you'll have a wide variety of marketable skills to fall back on if the fancy design gig doesn't materialize.

So, my advice. If you want to be a big time, lighting designer. You are going to need a BFA and an MFA to just get noticed. Further more the bigger name the program the better. There are a lot of good new designers lighting designers released on the world every year it's hard for them to get work because they can't get noticed to get started. So the name of the institution and it's reputation is very helpful.

If you want to do anything else in the lighting (and this is the world that most professional technicians make a living by the way). I would say the choice of BA or BFA doesn't really matter all that much. What matters is the program and faculty you are in AND where else you work and volunteer. You need as much hands on time as you can get. You need to impress people with your hard work and how capable you are. You do need good training from a university, but in a VERY short time, no one will care where you went to school, what your degree was. They will want to know where you worked and who you impressed. Your entire career can be made or lost on on a series of seemingly random connections. I'll say, oh this guy worked a summer stock show for Footer. I'll give him a call and see what he thinks of you. If he doesn't remember you, or worse has bad memories of you, you are in deep trouble.

Someone mentioned the concert and touring industry. This field is even more cutthroat. It's difficult to get into, but if you can get your foot in the door you are set. They train and promote from within. They don't like to take chances on outside hotshots. They like to take people they know, train, and mold them to be what they need. Want to get a job, move to a city where one of these companies is based and just start pestering them with your willingness to do anything. Then sweep the floors and serve coffee like your life depends on it.

Finally, a shameless promo for two year community colleges. I teach in a community college in the Seattle area. Whether, I get enough students to have my class approved or canceled is always a problem. However, I've got a season of four shows and dozens of other events and rentals that need staffing. Every two years my crew moves on. Right now I'm looking at my schedule and I've got NO ONE to help me. I'm going to have to do all the design work, and train people to do everything else along the way. If I'm lucky I'll find one or two recent high school graduates to work with this year. By the time of our second show in February if they are good and have a strong background that fresh high school grad will be designing lights, hanging lights, running crews, programming light boards, training board ops... everything! You can't get that kind of opportunity in a 4 year university. TONS of hands on experience. Tons of opportunity to screw up and experiment. Then you can go on to a 4 year university and get all the theory you can stand. People like me are hard to find. Many of the colleges in the area have very poor tech programs. But if you can find a 2 year community college with a good T.D. You can have a great opportunity to get your basic prerequisites out of the way and do a LOT of theater with little to no competition.

 

[sstolnack]

I think a 2 year community college would be pretty cool, but my parents are pretty dead set on me going to a four year college.
In college, I plan on trying everything. Although I've tried a few things at my high school, and I know I'm not a great carpenter and don't have a good ear for sound, I really want to try more. The problem is that at my high school I'm really the only one who understands the board, and the only one who knows how to design lights (although I did work with a board op, which was fun).
I am interested in SUNY purchase, and possibly Carnegie Mellon (although I thought they had a grad program? could be wrong). University of Montana has also come up, they sound like a pretty good school too.

What are people's opinions on the importance of connections to grad schools? Should I be looking at where the professors got their graduate degrees? If they went to a grad school I might want to go to, would it help my chance of getting in for grad school?

 

[ruinexplorer]

I share [MENTION=1563]gafftaper[/MENTION]'s view in looking into a community college first off. First of all, if you are planning on going to a public university afterwards for a liberal arts degree, you are going to save a ton of money on your core classes. Usually, going to a community college you can pay 1/2 to 1/3 in tuition over the larger university and the credits will (almost) always transfer over. Definitely check with the 4 year school on the requirements that you will need for their program and what they will accept from the community college. In Arizona, the universities came up with a standard that all the community colleges accepted for the lower division courses so all of your credits would transfer, but this may vary in other states.
Also, as he suggested, you will have opportunities to get your hands on many more areas in the theater and possibly even more design opportunities than your first two years in a four year program. I got a two year degree from a four year state college before transferring to a four year university. In my theater program, I was able to stage manage one of the two annual musicals and design lights for a dance concert during my freshman year. The next year I filled several other key positions as well, plus I had plenty of other hands on experience in props and carpentry.
The advantage I had when I went to the university (I took no theater classes there as my focus had changed) was that I worked at the local roadhouse where many national and international acts came through, including Broadway productions. The experience was completely different between the two schools.

As has been stated, getting in to design is tough. One of the most successful designers in Phoenix (he also did a design at Disneyland and regularly works in Wichita during the summers) lived off a trust fund while working his way into getting more designs. Problem is, most of us don't have trust funds to live off of. In fact, even many of the Broadway designers have to supplement by doing things like architectural lighting design. I'd suggest a stronger field such as Technical Direction as an emphasis if you truly want to get a job in this field.

 

[gafftaper]

Hey Sstolnack, since you are local drop me a PM if you want to know more about where I teach, my program, get a tour of campus, or even just have me talk with your parents about community college in general. As far as I know the three Seattle community colleges don't have a lot going on in theater. But some of us suburban schools have good stuff going on.

 

[Footer]

Just throwing this out there about the whole community college thing...

If you have the money to go to a four year school away from home, do it.

If you are strapped for cash and are going to get out of school with 50k in loans, go for the community college route to help take the edge off. Also, if you are strapped for cash odds are that you might also be one of the people that could just start working and hopefully work your way up.

You learn a lot more at college then what you do in the classroom. At least half of college is learning how to interact with people without your parents around to give advice/keep you on task/pay for things. You learn how to socialize. You learn how to live with people in close quarters. You learn how to collaborate. You learn how to be an adult.

I'm just guessing, but because mom and dad are pushing for the engineering degree at a 4 year school, they are going to help pay or pay for all of school. If money is not an issue, you would be shooting yourself in the foot to not got to the best school you possibly can get in to. Community colleges are great for those who can not afford a 4 year college/can't leave home. However, you do lose a good portion of what college is in the process.

 

[JBrennan]

Thought I would drop in a plug for another great BA program you could look into. I was in your same boat 5 years ago trying to decide between a university with a grad school attached or one that only offered a BA. I looked at a lot of school on the west coast and ended up choosing a great one at Santa Clara University.

Granted being an alumni now I have a bit of bias but what drew me to the school initially was that as a undergrad you will be designing main stage shows. I think I was working off a rep plot on the main stage by my 2nd year and a friend of mine was doing the full design by his junior year. There are countless other opportunities to design by the middle or end of your 1st year.
Second, I looked for a place with enough faculty to support my interests. Some theatre departments even at Universities are making do with a tech director/scene designer/lighting designer rolled into one. SCU had a head for every department with only the Tech Director/Sound Designer position combined. Each of them also worked on outside shows and projects, particularly the lighting department head, which ensured a constant stream of new information on technology, ideas, and lectures from other professionals in the industry that they all knew.
Third, the location. The bay area in California is brimming with professional, community, and education theatre/dance/performance companies. Finding work outside of school was very easy and fully supported by every member of the faculty. Many of the faculty, tech, acting, and dance, would pull students to work with them on shows or to recommend students for jobs they had heard of through the grape vine.

Lastly, and I assume this will appeal most to your parents, the broad base of the BA at Santa Clara had me taking classes in everything from theatre, to anthropology, art history, and various religions. Each of these helped me in some way as a designer because you need to have that global and historic perspective to draw from and to relate to in the plays/musicals/dances that you work on. Also, particularly at SCU, it was extremely easy to double major and I had friends graduate with degrees in business, art, engineering, and biology as well as theatre.

Thats my endorsement/advice on what to look for when you go to visit schools. I don't believe where your professors got their MFA is important necessarily, as much as the fact that they are still working in the professional theatre world and keeping up with the changing nature of the business. And ones that will encourage you to do so as well. Most BFA programs I've heard of tend to keep you captive and working so intensely that you can't work outside while going to school. A friend of mine transfered from Carnegie Mellon for this reason, she is a brilliant designer but being in that intense of an environment was overload and she needed a school where she could pursue theatre as well as other subjects and degrees to bolster that primary talent in theatre.

Good luck!

 

[gafftaper]

I definitely agree with Footer that you want to get the best education that you can afford. If you can easily afford to go to the most expensive private school in the country, then great, have fun, I wish you well.

One huge mistake people make is getting them self way into debt in tech theater. This isn't like becoming a doctor where you can stack up a $100k in student loans and pay them off in a few years. You aren't going to make a lot of money... ever. You will probably be able to put together a comfortable career, but the odds of you getting rich doing this are VERY VERY low. We do tech because we love tech. You will probably have to have another job for a while. You will eat a lot of macaroni and cheese/ramen and drive an old car for many years after graduating. It takes a lot of time to establish and prove yourself before you start making money. While some of us have really glamorous jobs most don't. Many have no health care or retirement benefits.

Everyone should consider the possibility of getting a non-theater degree in order to work in fields around theater. For example our potential engineering student above could could get a job at ETC designing lighting equipment or Disneyland OR if you're good with numbers get an accounting degree specialize in working at a non-profit and find a job doing the books at your local regional theater. There are LOTS of these peripheral jobs they are far more stable and tend to have much better benefits and hours than being a stage hand. I know it sounds like a lot of fun right now to be a professional stage hand out on tour but if you talk to the people who actually do it, it gets old fast.

Be sure to read this collection of advice from some old pros about what it's really like getting a job in this industry. It's not always the wonderful dream you have hoped for. You need to seriously consider the effect of this industry on your ability to have health insurance, retirement, and stable relationships. If you want to someday settle down with a family and all that, you need to seriously think about how you are going to fit into this industry. Not that it isn't possible, but it's difficult to say the least.