digital noise

Zawie

Member
Hi folks

I'm new to Controlbooth and I could use some advice. We have a Dell laptop playing through an M-Audio Fast Track Pro then a Mackie 1202 Mixer to the power amps and speakers. The problem is digital noise. It's not 60Hz hum, it changes as the laptop accesses the disk etc. How do I get rid of this noise?

Thanks
 
Welcome.

The first thing to check is if it goes away when the laptop is unplugged from the wall, running on battery.
 
OK, I'll try that. The laptop is kinda old and I don't know how good the battery is or how long it would last, would it die before the end of the show......

Thanks
 
A 3 to 2 prong adapter on the laptop power supply did the trick. Tech rehearsal yesterday went very well and everything sounds great. Thanks for the tip.
Did you read the safety comments in the M-Audio response and contact the manufacturer of the power supply before lifting the ground?
Not all devices work correctly with lifted ground and might overheat and/or create an electric shock hazard. Before lifting the ground on any device, please contact its manufacturer in order to find out if this device will work properly and if it will create an electric shock hazard under these conditions.
and
IMPORTANT: Before you proceed, make sure that you have contacted the manufacturer of the device you intend to lift the ground on. If this is not supported for this device, lifting the ground can cause damages, serious injuries or death!
Power supplies with three prong plugs are often intended to have a ground connection and lifting the ground can create a vey unsafe condition. If it is a three prong plug on the power supply then please do not lift the safety ground until you have confirmed it is safe to do so.
 
This is a common problem in notebooks, and if you look around you will see that sometimes the manufacturer depending on where they sell the unit either include a 3 prong or two prong adaptor. It is IMO a design problem in the notebook bricks, where the design is really for TWO prong and to meet some specs they offer it with a 3 prong adaptor which causes all sorts of problems on the ground side of things

SO IMO the notebook is the ONLY time that I would recommend lifting the ground, and I know a lot of folks will disagree but if you talk with a lot of the notebook manufacturers that is what what they will tell you to do.

The notebook runs ENTIRELY on dc power and does NOT use the AC ground and does not connect to the ac ground so the traditional concers shocks does not really apply here. This is also why you will notice that MOST wall warts that supply dc also are two prong only

Sharyn
 
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SO IMO the notebook is the ONLY time that I would recommend lifting the ground, and I know a lot of folks will disagree but if you talk with a lot of the notebook manufacturers that is what what they will tell you to do.

The notebook runs ENTIRELY on dc power and does NOT use the AC ground and does not connect to the ac ground so the traditional concers shocks does not really apply here. This is also why you will notice that MOST wall warts that supply dc also are two prong only
The same concerns most certainly do apply. The fact that the laptop or notebook runs on DC or that the output of the device is DC is irrelevant, it still runs off 120VAC. A laptop power supply has 120VAC coming into it, which makes it just like any other AC powered device. With no safety ground in place then unless the power supply itself is designed to operate without a safety ground, a loose wire or arc inside the power supply could make the supply itself 'hot' and anyone touching it then becomes the ground path.

There is one exception and that is if something is run on a GFCI protected receptacle or circuit. If a device becomes 'hot' and you ground it the GFCI will sense the difference in current between the hot and neutral that causes and break the circuit. However, that is provided that the GFCI protection is functioning properly, I saw one estimate that something like 20% of the total GFCI receptacles installed in residential construction in the US had suffered failure in the protection circuitry which results in it operating just like a regular circuit.

But in general, if a device has a three prong plug the only safe assumption is that it should have a safety ground connection. Never assume otherwise unless the manufacturer confirms that the device is safe to operate without the safety ground connection being present. I'd rather have a lot of people have to ask the manufacturer first than to have one that should have asked first not do so.
 
I can Factually say that all dell laptops from year 2000+ are not designed to use the ground the bricks will run on the two prong without ground and can do so safely, before that the laptops were specified in the manual themselves whether or not you could do so with the power bricks. The ground is there as a saftey requirement when they build those power supplies. they are not needed though as they are just there to "satisfy" the safety "experts".


Again i would only do this with a laptop from 2000+ and even still i would do it rarely and far between. also try putting both the laptop and your fire-wire device on the same power strip. that might clear it up and help add safety to your rig.
 
The same concerns most certainly do apply. The fact that the laptop or notebook runs on DC or that the output of the device is DC is irrelevant, it still runs off 120VAC. A laptop power supply has 120VAC coming into it, which makes it just like any other AC powered device. With no safety ground in place then unless the power supply itself is designed to operate without a safety ground, a loose wire or arc inside the power supply could make the supply itself 'hot' and anyone touching it then becomes the ground path.

That's the thing with Dell power supplies (and their laptops), they've got weird ground designs. The mains input ground is only terminated via a (if I recall correctly) 10k resistor to the negative DC output rail. This might not be the case on all of them, but on the few I have taken apart this has been the basic scheme.

The case is plastic on their power supplies with no grounding cage, and typically they use only a 2-pin connector to the laptop itself.

So normally, yes it isn't a good idea to lift the ground on a grounded device, but in this instance it could be safely done in my opinion.

That said it's still not the ideal way to tackle the issue. The problem is a simple ground loop, only with a huge source of RFI (the laptop) with close proximity to the loop.

That loop can be broken in two ways:
A: The method that has already been mentioned here, which is to disconnect the laptop from earth ground.

B: Break the ground between the laptop and the sound board. A direct box with a ground lift switch is the easiest way to do this.
 
The other solution that I have seen is to use a balanced power setup, but typically this is out of the league for most folks, BUT it does work.

Sharyn
 
Okay, I get a little worked up when things regard potential safety issues. :shock:

I'm really simply echoing what M-Audio advises, verify that breaking the safety ground connection is acceptable rather than assuming it is. That is a lot better than finding out the hard way that it was a device for which that is not an acceptable practice.

It is also usually a good idea to include some marking or identification where you do things that vary from standard practice so that others can understand the situation.
 

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