Do you use an RTA as a visual aide for teaching EQ'ing?

[LesWilson]

I can do an adequate job of EQ'ing but I want to teach Junior and High School students to be able to do it. I have a computer and USB interface to augment our Allen Heath GL2800 with some digital assist. Has anyone used an RTA or other tool as a visual aide so students can see what they should be hearing? Are there other ways you use a computer to augment your analog mixer?

 

[museav]

What are you actually trying to do? Is this in regards to live sound or recording/broadcast? Are you talking about equalizing audio systems or about using channel EQ on a mixer? Are you trying to help them associate what they hear to the related frequencies? What do you mean by "so students can see what they should be hearing" and do you actually mean their seeing what they are hearing?

 

[LesWilson]

This is for a skills building practicum. I'm trying to use something we have (computer and interface) to augment our analog mixer with some digital capabilities I've seen in digital consoles. The context is to assist students to be able to set parametric EQs on mixer channels in live event mixing. Secondarily, I anticipate some students will be able to use the tools to associate what they hear to what they are doing on the console. The usual wipe through the frequency technique isn't always effective and if there were additional visual feedback, that would help some ... maybe all students. I don't know. Hence the question.

Another feature I've seen on digital consoles is to record a performer or instrument, examine it with some tools, and EQ it on the mixer based on the tool. Again, I don't claim to have a lock on this concept of augmenting an analog mixer with an outboard digital tool. Hence the question from those who are experienced with this. It may not be the ideal but it could be better than nothing.

If anyone has done it, I'm interested in the details of what you used and did.

 

[museav]

Have they mastered mixing with the analog mixer? I am reminded of the recent discussion regarding people who know how to use the tools but not how to apply them properly or that start to rely on having tools they may not always have. If you are not already doing so then you might want to look at some of the many available ear training programs and tools out there so that the students can better associate what they hear with the corresponding frequencies.

It always comes up but one consideration with external audio processing via a computer is latency. Getting the audio into and out of the computer as well as the audio processing in the computer takes time. When those signals are mixed with direct signals without the same delay then that delay or latency affects how they mix. So external processing on a computer of some signals within a mix has some inherent challenges that are also very hardware and software dependent.

What are you trying to see? Many digital mixers show a graphic representation of the equalization but they are showing the equalization being applied, not the resulting audio or what you are hearing. And they are not showing what is appropriate or sounds good. So are you wanting to see the resulting signal or simply a graphic presentation of the EQ settings? If you want to listen to a channel of audio while you apply parametric equalization with a visual representation of the equalization then REW - Room EQ Wizard Home Page might be useful for you.

On the second point, can you provide a bit more detail? I thought you might be referring to analysis tools like Smaart, SysTune and SIM that can provide detailed amplitude, frequency and phase analysis using real world signals, but other than PreSonus starting to introduce the Spectogram functionality of Smaart on their StudioLive software these are separate software and you have to understand how they work to use them effectively. There are some digital consoles that have channel libraries of preset settings for various applications. or perhaps there is some plug-in you've seen. But I don't know of anything available that can tell you how something sounds in the mix or tell you how to make it sound better, that is both the skill of listening and the art of mixing.

 

[BNBSound]

My FOH EQ has an RTA in it that I've always used to back up my ears in pressure situations. I also use it after EQing the room to see if I missed anything or over shot. It's a great tool for training your ears but don't lean on it too much. Most that you find, on phones or even in gear don't have enough resolution to really do you any good besides a quick look. If you've got 1/3 octave EQs you really need a 1/12 octave RTA like you find in SMAART or other software to make good use of it. That said there are some great training apps to pair up with using an RTA in the venue. Some one just released one for iOS that's getting rave reviews.

 

[LesWilson]

@museav and BNBsound ... thank you for taking the time to make informative posts. I'm not looking for something that shows you what sounds good.

My educational goal is to help jr and senior high students develop an ear so they can EQ the vocals and instruments we use in our Fine Arts events. For some students, being able to see the effect (even delayed) of using the mixer's parametric EQ on a spectrum analyzer will help them hear the effect. Still others will benefit from capturing a clip, developing an EQ with a software parametric filter, applying it on the mixer and listening/tweaking the result. I can cobble an RTA and audio editor together but those are just two ideas I had and I just thought other educators may have already done this and built some curriculum around them. thanks again...

 

[museav]

I realize this is an older post but I saw something at InfoComm that reminded me of this thread...

The product involved is Overview | StageScape M20d | Line 6. One of the unique features with this device is that it is intended to allow less technical users to get a usable mix using an interface and terminology that may be more comfortable for them. Thus you can "tweak" the EQ, dynamics processing and effects for an input by going into a basic tweak mode where you adjust the signal processing by simply selecting points on X-Y screens that are labeled with user friendly terms like "bright" and "dark" or "open" and "control". You can also go into an advanced tweak mode with direct access to the processing and EQ controls in a much more traditional format.

What I found is that you apparently can have the mixer set to one tweak mode and an iPad remote controller connected and set to the other mode. Thus you can apparently adjust things on the iPad or mixer using a 'user friendly', non-technical interface and at the same time see the related equalizer, processing and effects settings on the other device. Conversely, you could seemingly make a change to the processor settings and then see how that affects things in a 'plain English' sense

Add in any of the many free RTA programs on a PC, Mac, iPad, tablet or even smartphone and you seem to potentially have a great way to let students relate plain English descriptors, the related processing and the associated effects on the audio signal frequency response in a very visual manner.

 

[Footer]

Thus you can "tweak" the EQ, dynamics processing and effects for an input by going into a basic tweak mode where you adjust the signal processing by simply selecting points on X-Y screens that are labeled with user friendly terms like "bright" and "dark" or "open" and "control". You can also go into an advanced tweak mode with direct access to the processing and EQ controls in a much more traditional format.

In other words, it speaks musician. That is probably one of the hardest things about mixing monitors for any band... translating what the musician hears into what to actually change.

I have a feeling I will start seeing this thing around town. However, at 2500 bucks it is not at all in the reach of most bar bands making 300 a night. This is more for the doctor who plays in the band on the weekends to "cut loose".