Elco Snake Questions...

[jstroming]

I am making 2x 300' (in 100' increments) audio snakes (16-channels and 32-channels) for a Recording Rig. 16ch snake will go from FOH audio position to Recording Rig, 32ch snake will go from Split box by band on stage to Recording Rig. I can't just split from Direct Outs of Audio Console FOH for the band, as I'm a video guy and have had bad experiences with FOH Audio Engineers (sorry haha). I have settled on Elco connectors, pretty much due to cost, with breakouts at the end. I would be up for other connector options in a similar price range. MASS seems waaaay excessive cost-wise to me at $400-500 a connector.

I need to know the best configuration connector wise...If I put 120-pin elco's on both 16ch and 32ch snakes, I will be able to use them interchangeably for smaller shows. Or should I share grounds on a few of the channels to use the 90-pin Elco? Should I leave the extra pins out of the connector if I use 120-pin Elcos, or put them in un-wired?

My other option was to build rack-panel breakouts where I have both a 120-pin Elco and 56-pin Elco wired in series before the xlr breakout connectors. Is this feasible and smart? Obviously, I want to have the most flexibility as possible interchangeably using 16ch's and 32ch's as necessary. Thanks!

 

[bishopthomas]

I feel your pain with the 90/120 dilemma. I recently started building a 32 channel splitter based around Elco's myself. I used the 90 pin connectors, so only 30 channels down the Elco. My thinking was that there would always be at least 2 audience mics, so they're not necessarily going to be patched to FOH and will run directly into my pres.

In your case I would go with the 90's, use 32 pair cable, and add the panel mount XLR's and break the other two channels out of the Elco end. Use heat shrink and/or snake skin to make it all pretty. This is only because I like the size of the 90's and they are the most common, so that's what I use.

If you end up going with the 90's let me know. I have a few cables (Elco-Elco, Elco-XLRm) laying around that I don't need anymore. I also have a rack panel with 32 XLRf to bare tails (was going to put XLRm's on it to make an input panel) as well as a modular panel with AC inlet, quad AC outlet, Elco 90, and a fan. This was going to be my input panel for the recorder rack.

By the way, do you have the proper Elco tools? The crimper is not cheap, so if you need one I might consider loaning you mine.

 

[SHARYNF]

I have used Elco's in the past and really have learned to hate them. IF you can go with the whirlwind Mass connector it is much much better

Whirlwind / MASS Connector FAQ

Sharyn

 

[jstroming]

At $400-$500 a connector, MASS has pretty much priced itself out of my reality LOL. I know they're great connectors, but being that I need 14 of them....well...I might as well buy a digital snake at that cost. I have thought about keeping the snakes in 1x 300' length, but I imagine that's pretty **** heavy. Are 300' 32ch snakes uncommon? I would just feel silly using this whole gigantic snake for a 50' run sometimes.

Thanks for the offer bishopthomas...I actually do already own all the EDAC/ELCO tools.

The more I think about it the better (and less-time consuming, prone to failure, and cheaper) a 300' run sounds. Do they make cable reels this big or am I just going to have to lug this sucker around? Decisions, Decisions....

 

[bishopthomas]

I agree that the Mass connectors are FAR superior to Elco's. If you can swing it (even if it has to be used) go Mass. I think the W6 is the 40 channel version.

Edit: It's the W3 that's the 40 channel Mass.

 

[bishopthomas]

I know what you mean about the cost of a copper snake vs. a digital. I had actually decided to go MADI over fiber with my rig for the long runs. Then I started buying lighting gear so put that on hold.

If you want pricing on the CBI version of Mass (compatible with the Whirlwinds and pretty much the same thing) let me know as I am a CBI dealer. The list price on the W3 40 pair is $530 for the inline, $400 for the chassis mount, but I could do way better than that. You could do one 300' run and then one shorter at some point in the future.

 

[SHARYNF]

I would look at getting or making a cable reel and NOT splitting the snake expectantly with Elco's. Connected to a device in a rack the elco's are ok, not great but workable, connecting on a snake on the floor or ??? is a courting DISASTER. They just do NOT hold up or offer protection. The first time you are in the middle of a recording session and you loose a number of the channels you are going to really be sorry. As I said I have used them, IF they are in s rack or really protected they are fine but in a non protected environmnet you have a problem just waiting to happen

I have a three way snake just like you are talking about FOH Monitor and Video
I have used the Ramtech https://www.ramtechinternational.com/store/ and the Mass.

I would seriously look at the digital snake today, just the weight, size and running all that copper is not a simple deal. Adding multiple Elco's in the runs would really keep me up nights ;-)))))

If I absolutely had to do it, I would Make a rack mount rolling system on the Stage end, and then have the elco's and have a support system for them, and I would have very long breakout tails on each other end so that I could always have the elco's in some sort of case to protect them (even a modified milk crate) and I would NEVER use them for an extended cable run unless I could also have a box system that protected them (you could make up some sort of box that locked down over them for protection like a clam shell

Sorry to be so paranoid but some day you might thank me
Sharyn

 

[FMEng]

This isn't answering your question, but I have done a fair amount of remote broadcasts and recording in front of live audiences. Trust me, you don't want to ever use direct outs from a FOH console. You also will not want to try resistive or parallel splits from mics. Either of those methods will yield more hums and buzzes than a hornet's nest. Without the right gear, it will frequently turn into a disaster for both you and the sound re-enforcement crew.

What you need is a transformer isolated, mic splitter snake. It is the only way to do it passively. Building one properly is beyond a do it yourself project for most people because the smallest details in grounding, transformer selection, and layout are critical to it working successfully. Jensen transformer has excellent technical papers on the subject. I have built them, but I also have an electronics degree and assistants to slave over the thing.

These days, a digital snake system is the way to go. Go with fiber optic, and you'll never have a ground loop. Have output frames for recording, FOH and monitor consoles.