Emphasis to Express conundrum

[SteveB]

This may be a bit esoteric but was an interesting exercise and was also a stump the ETC tech support question.

The Dept of Theater has cued a show using 8 High End moving lights on an Emhpasis 500-2d/Express 250 system.

The Emphasis has a 500 channel capacity. The movers require 174 control channels (6 Studio Spot CMY/Zooms @ 24 addresses ea. & 2 Studio Color 250's @ 15 addresses ea.). The conventional system goes to channel 81 with many gaps, the ML's are above that and go beyond channel 250 in order to have the layout as each ML on a horizontal row on the Channel display screen, thus goes to channel 315.

The LD desires to port the Emphasis show file to the Express 250 in stand-alone mode (no Emphasis server) after dress.

No comments needed as to the why.

I have available to me the following software: Emphasis OLE and WYSIWYG v17, Expression Off-Line Editor, Ion Off-Line Editor. The last is important.

How to get the channel count down to the capacity of the Express 250 and not have to re-write the cue levels.

Note that this was acheived - in theory, as we have not as yet loaded the file to the Express in non-Emphasis mode, but it all runs correctly in Express Off-Line

Discuss methods and potential pitfalls.

Note that I attempted to post this in the QotD forum but was denied permission. If anyone wants to move it, a thanks.

 

[meatpopsicle]

This may be a bit esoteric but was an interesting exercise and was also a stump the ETC tech support question.

The Dept of Theater has cued a show using 8 High End moving lights on an Emhpasis 500-2d/Express 250 system.

The Emphasis has a 500 channel capacity. The movers require 174 control channels (6 Studio Spot CMY/Zooms @ 24 addresses ea. & 2 Studio Color 250's @ 15 addresses ea.). The conventional system goes to channel 81 with many gaps, the ML's are above that and go beyond channel 250 in order to have the layout as each ML on a horizontal row on the Channel display screen, thus goes to channel 315.

The LD desires to port the Emphasis show file to the Express 250 in stand-alone mode (no Emphasis server) after dress.

No comments needed as to the why.

I have available to me the following software: Emphasis OLE and WYSIWYG v17, Expression Off-Line Editor, Ion Off-Line Editor. The last is important.

How to get the channel count down to the capacity of the Express 250 and not have to re-write the cue levels.

Note that this was acheived - in theory, as we have not as yet loaded the file to the Express in non-Emphasis mode, but it all runs correctly in Express Off-Line

Discuss methods and potential pitfalls.

Note that I attempted to post this in the QotD forum but was denied permission. If anyone wants to move it, a thanks.

This is beyond my ability to work out with out the console and the off line editors to do the work but I imagine it has something to do with only patching the actual channels that are doing the work. The express outputs 250 channels but it can address any 250 in 2 universes, right? By depatching the channels in the lower 81 (where there are gaps) and the unused channels that the movers take up to line up on the right lines on the monitor you make it to within 250 channels and the actual channel numbers don't change so your cues still work.

 

[SteveB]

This is beyond my ability to work out with out the console and the off line editors to do the work but I imagine it has something to do with only patching the actual channels that are doing the work. The express outputs 250 channels but it can address any 250 in 2 universes, right? By depatching the channels in the lower 81 (where there are gaps) and the unused channels that the movers take up to line up on the right lines on the monitor you make it to within 250 channels and the actual channel numbers don't change so your cues still work.

Nope. Express only ever controls 250 channels. Universes don't come into play. If you skip channels and have nothing patched, the desk still only displays to 250. Your loss for not using every channel.

In this case every channel in use needs to keep it's patch as current. The problem is to "move" those channels from Emphasis above 250 down below 250, with the need to truncate the entire console channel setup as a result to make it fit.

 

[calkew5]

Hmmm....this is a stumper. I've never actually used an Emphasis so I don't know the particulars of what it can do, but I do know that the Expression offline editor can export a show as ASCII. So if you did that, then applied a cleverly written bit of code to that raw text, you could output a new show file with the channels smooshed down into the 250.

Somehow I feel like this is not what you did.

 

[xander]

Is this a student only question for a week?

 

[Footer]

Export the ASCII file, start do a find an replace and change all channels 315 to 215 and so on. Then, re-import the ASCII. I have had to do this before when taking a show programmed on a 72/144 and putting it onto a 24/48. This is also a convenient way to re-order cues.

Your next pit fall is going to involve how those moving lights behave. Emphasis does moving lights a bit different then express. You should all the data there to control them, but the patch could be a bit messed up. As you know, emphasis does not patch moving lights like expression. Good luck.

I hate emphasis. When I taught in Atlanta I had one and I hated it more then any other piece of gear I have ever used. I blasted the server and installed Chamsys on it then took the faceplate and turned it into a regular expression 3. Never want to touch one of those things again... and I'm a hard core WYG user.

 

[SteveB]

Is this a student only question for a week?

Anybody can answer as ALL advice appreciated

 

[bdkdesigns]

I'm not familiar with how Emphasis changes the data. I stumbled through using it once and never really looked at how it changed how the data was written.

However, I've done the Ion to Express conversion before. I'd assume that you utilized the Ion to use the "Move To" function since it takes that channel and all of its data and moves it to a new channel. My only point of unknowing is how Emphasis treats movers. Essentially, did they become patched as movers with given parameters or are they just broken down to individual channels with absolute values.

 

[SteveB]

My only point of unknowing is how Emphasis treats movers. Essentially, did they become patched as movers with given parameters or are they just broken down to individual channels with absolute values.

Emphasis essentially deals with movers and similar devices the same as plain vanilla Express/ion - I.E. what I call discrete channels, so a console channel per attribute. Enough said

 

[xander]

My guess would be to Export the Emphasis show file to a v3.1 show file using something like an Expression or Insight (something that has enough channels so that you aren't losing any data), Export that to USITT ASCII, Import the ASCII into ION ole, use the ION's advanced features to move all of the channels around without losing cue data, once you are below the 250 channels needed, Export back into ASCII, Import the ASCII into an Express 250?

-Tim

EDIT: Potential pitfalls is that you wont have any personalities. Cannot use the fixture patch. All channels will just be regular HTP "dimmer" channels unless once you are back in the Express 250 you go through and edit the channel attributes to get your 16bit and LTP back in line with the movers.

 

[SteveB]

Tim wrote:

" use the ION's advanced features to move all of the channels around without losing cue data"

Ion does not permit advanced functions on an ASCII import.

"EDIT: Potential pitfalls is that you wont have any personalities. Cannot use the fixture patch. All channels will just be regular HTP "dimmer" channels unless once you are back in the Express 250 you go through and edit the channel attributes to get your 16bit and LTP back in line with the movers."

You've described a a potential pitfall. In theory, if the file going back into Express has all the correct channels and the correct patch, all the console is doing is sending DMX to the dims and fixtures, sort of like a dumb playback controller. So in theory, it won't need a personality. If there are values on the first 2 channels for a studio spot, the fixture knows that those levels are fine and course pan, or whatever and the fixture should go where the desk is telling it to go. The same as taking a snapshot of the DMX stream with a DMX tester to troubleshoot.

EDIT:
Another issue we are not yet clear on, does Emphasis "hide" the Move Before Bright instructions as something other then basic channel value changes. If so, that may not transfer.

I will actually be putting this to the test late Wed. when the Express goes back to the booth. I'll post the results then.

 

[xander]

Tim wrote:

" use the ION's advanced features to move all of the channels around without losing cue data"

Ion does not permit advanced functions on an ASCII import.

All I meant was use the {Move To}, a feature that is more much more advanced than anything the Express(ion)s can do. ION can do that, doesn't matter what the import was, once it is imported you can do what you want with the channels.

"EDIT: Potential pitfalls is that you wont have any personalities. Cannot use the fixture patch. All channels will just be regular HTP "dimmer" channels unless once you are back in the Express 250 you go through and edit the channel attributes to get your 16bit and LTP back in line with the movers."

You've described a a potential pitfall. In theory, if the file going back into Express has all the correct channels and the correct patch, all the console is doing is sending DMX to the dims and fixtures, sort of like a dumb playback controller. So in theory, it won't need a personality. If there are values on the first 2 channels for a studio spot, the fixture knows that those levels are fine and course pan, or whatever and the fixture should go where the desk is telling it to go. The same as taking a snapshot of the DMX stream with a DMX tester to troubleshoot.

No, you don't need a personality to play back the show correctly, that's not what I was saying. But, if once you are on the 250 and you wish to make any adjustments, you wont have the ability to use the Moving Lights Patch. You asked for possible pitfalls, that's one I thought.
EDIT: Although, now that I think about it, if you use the proper personality so that all of the channels line up perfectly, there's no reason that once you are on the 250, you couldn't just go in and apply the personality in the fixture patch. If you wanted to.

Also, yes the fixture knows the two channels are course and fine on a 16bit attribute, but the console doesn't. So, yes, the final result will be a "snapshot" of DMX values and that will be correct, but the fade to get to that point will not work properly if you just left it and didn't change the Channel Attributes to 16bit.

-Tim

 

[xander]

EDIT:
Another issue we are not yet clear on, does Emphasis "hide" the Move Before Bright instructions as something other then basic channel value changes. If so, that may not transfer.

I don't know anything about Emphasis, but I would assume it does not actually write moves into your cue structure, so, yes this data would be lost because the Express does not have anything anywhere near comparable. That's something I'm sure ETC could answer easily enough.

 

[SteveB]

No, you don't need a personality to play back the show correctly, that's not what I was saying. But, if once you are on the 250 and you wish to make any adjustments, you wont have the ability to use the Moving Lights Patch. You asked for possible pitfalls, that's one I thought.
EDIT: Although, now that I think about it, if you use the proper personality so that all of the channels line up perfectly, there's no reason that once you are on the 250, you couldn't just go in and apply the personality in the fixture patch. If you wanted to.

Also, yes the fixture knows the two channels are course and fine on a 16bit attribute, but the console doesn't. So, yes, the final result will be a "snapshot" of DMX values and that will be correct, but the fade to get to that point will not work properly if you just left it and didn't change the Channel Attributes to 16bit.

-Tim

I'm trying to not answer the question as yet, but let's assume that the Ion Move To function in patch is critical.

And you may be correct that a personality is required in the Express to get the fades correct. In theory, the LD knows that once the show is in basic Express mode, he cannot make changes, so control functionality is not important as the desk is essentially a payback controller.

And I have as yet to determine if the Emphasis Move Before Bright function writes values not seen, possibly in the background. I would think that MBB would simply act as an autopilot, as it were, as it automatically sets channel values (that should be seen on screen). I have not as yet had a chance to look at some of this.

It certainly is a learning experience in how consoles help "think" for you.

 

[xander]

And you may be correct that a personality is required in the Express to get the fades correct.

It's not that it needs a personality, it's just that it needs to be set to 16bit where applicable. Which you can do in the Channel Attributes on a channel by channel basis, not necessarily with a Personality. When channels are 16bit, the second channel (fine) must move 0-255 for every point the first channel (course) moves. So, if it were not set to 16bit, you have two 8bit channels fading and each one is just going to fade from point A to point B.

-Tim

 

[SteveB]

The LD opted to not deal with the transfer, they will use the Emphasis and will instruct the non-trained student console operator on how to power up the Emphasis and facepanel

The method we used on test run #1.

- Export from Emphasis as an ASCII file (an option in Emphasis).

- Use Import as Library Fixture in Ion Off-Line. This correctly sees all the cues, but Ion, being smart, sees the profiles of the ML fixtures and coverts all the ML channels to attribute channels. Thus there's nothing to send to Expression Off-Line, which needs discrete channel values for all the attributes.

- A call to ETC had Jenn recommend clearing the patch, cautioning that doing so might clear the cues in Emphasis.

So test run 2 became:

- Open Expression Off-Line Editor and read/convert the Emphasis ASCII file. Porting into Expression Off-Line Editor strips the profiles.

- Save and import to Ion Off-Line. Ion reads all channel values as discrete with no attempt to create attribute channels for the ML's. The patch was correct as well.

- Use the Ion patch "Move To" function to truncate the file to less then 250 channels. The Ion Move To function tracks all channel values.

- Export as ASCII, read/convert to Expression Off-Line. All looked hunky dory.

The issues not resolved:

- Are the Move Before Bright values established by Emphasis hidden or real ? - as in does the MBB data transfer as actual channel values in a ASCII file. Not known at this time

- Do we need to make the 2nd pan and tilt channels as 16bit ?, or if the fixtures never move while on, does it matter if they are steppy ?, or will the 2nd channel values for pan/tilt place the fixtures where they need to be if left in 8bit mode. Unknown.

Also unanswered is what is different about the ASCII file out of Emphasis that allows Ion to see the profiles and make the correct conversion, where as an Expression Off-Line file has no profile (seemingly) thus Ion saw discrete channel values ?. Unknown.

Ad for what it's worth, I could see where some of these tricks and methods, especially the Ion Move To capability, would have some real value for an LD on tour needing to get a 250 channel file down to 125 or so, or for a house electrician to do something similar. So maybe not so esoteric.

A learning experience it was and is.

 

[tdrga]

- Are the Move Before Bright values established by Emphasis hidden or real ? - as in does the MBB data transfer as actual channel values in a ASCII file. Not known at this time

My guess is that the MBB values are generated at runtime- i.e. when the go button is pushed. If not, then it should be easy to see if the values are in the ASCII file as they would be hard-coded in the cues.

- Do we need to make the 2nd pan and tilt channels as 16bit ?, or if the fixtures never move while on, does it matter if they are steppy ?, or will the 2nd channel values for pan/tilt place the fixtures where they need to be if left in 8bit mode. Unknown.

If the fixtures are not doing live pan/tilt moves, then not setting the channels to 16bit won't hurt anything. It only comes into play as the channel values fade from one cue to the next. The start point and end point are defined by the cue values, (both the high-byte and low-byte channels are recorded in the cues, so the fixture will position properly)- the steppiness would come from the fact that you have downgraded to 8-bit resolution for the fade.

Also unanswered is what is different about the ASCII file out of Emphasis that allows Ion to see the profiles and make the correct conversion, where as an Expression Off-Line file has no profile (seemingly) thus Ion saw discrete channel values ?. Unknown.

My guess is that the Emphasis ASCII file had patch notes that defined the fixtures, while the Expression ASCII file did not. There are provisions for putting manufacturer specific data fields in the ASCII file.

Ad for what it's worth, I could see where some of these tricks and methods, especially the Ion Move To capability, would have some real value for an LD on tour needing to get a 250 channel file down to 125 or so, or for a house electrician to do something similar. So maybe not so esoteric.

A learning experience it was and is.

For simple shows, it is possible to manually "massage" the ASCII file in a text editor. Not something I would want to do all the time though. I'd be surprised if a more user-friendly ASCII show file editor hasn't already been developed by someone.

Thanks for sharing the tricks-

-Todd

 

[Brandofhawk]

Okay, so this might seem silly...
But why not just export the ASCII and then edit it down to the channels in a plain text editor (notepad, textedit) and then re-save it, and load it into the desk?

So long as you replace all the channel information for everywhere... it should just load in... but then again I haven't the slightest clue.