Control/Dimming ETC Idea48 desk, Colortran D192 dimmers

[adickerson]

Hello, Everyone. I'm new here! I had a question I thought maybe you all could help me with. I just got an ETC Idea 48 (which needed some fixing up to get in working order). One of the strange things is that it was retrofitted with a 3-pin DMX out (no, its not microplex. Just 3-pin DMX). So it gets up and running and we connect it to our 5-pin dimmers with an adapter and there's a problem. Many of the channels (but not all) bump to full as soon as its plugged in - seems like a simple problem with the adapter we're using, but so far that doesn't seem to be the case, and now I'm stuck. Here's what I've tested so far:

-Plugged the Idea board into 3-pin dimmers in a different theater and it works fine.
-Plugged a Leprecon board (with 5-pin out) into the dimmers, and it worked fine.
-tried 3 different 3-pin (M) to 5-pin (f) adapters (2 homemade, 1 store-bought) and had the same problem with all of them, more or less ruling out that its the adapter.
-Plugged a different 3-pin out board into the dimmers with the same adapters, it ALSO doesn't work properly.
-Checked the dimmers, realized there was no terminator, so I added a 3-pin terminator on a 5-pin to 3-pin adapter and the channels that were on at full are now just ghosting.


I was told that a 5-pin terminator shouldn't make a difference. Is that true? I was thinking to go get one, since plugging in the terminator seemed to be the only thing that made a difference, but my understanding is that it really shouldn't make any difference...

Anyone have any thoughts about what's going on here? My usual guru is out of town on vacation, so I'm trying to give him a rest and solve this on my own (or with your help as the case may be...).

 

[techno89]

Try doing a HARD RESET on the board. Any parked dimmers? Sounds like a really odd problem

 

[rochem]

One thing I can't tell from your post, are these levels displayed on the monitor, or does the monitor show everything as off? Have you tried capturing some channels and moving around the channel sliders to see if anything changed? My first thought would be something to do with the patch.

Try a Deep Clear of the console. Turn it off, then hold down the 7, 8, and 9 keys, then while still holding them down, turn the board back on and don't release until the startup sequence completes. Obviously, don't do this unless everything you need from the board is backed up, as it will erase everything.

 

[adickerson]

Thanks so much for the response. The patch is set for 1 to 1, and I cleared the memory first thing upon receiving the board.

The channels that are up when I plug in the board are NOT registering on the monitor, as in the board thinks they are not on. It is the same channels that come up when I plug in the other board. SOME of the channels are responding to the faders with the Idea board (I think its 25 through 30) but no others are (1-24, for example do NOT respond to being captured and brought to full on the keypad or by the faders, but 25-30 respond to both) With the other board that has a 3-pin out(its the elation Scene-setter 24 - I know, I know. Shameful) all of the channels DO respond when I bring them up (although I can only test 1-24 with that board)

One thing I can't tell from your post, are these levels displayed on the monitor, or does the monitor show everything as off? Have you tried capturing some channels and moving around the channel sliders to see if anything changed? My first thought would be something to do with the patch.

Try a Deep Clear of the console. Turn it off, then hold down the 7, 8, and 9 keys, then while still holding them down, turn the board back on and don't release until the startup sequence completes. Obviously, don't do this unless everything you need from the board is backed up, as it will erase everything.

 

[derekleffew]

...I was told that a 5-pin terminator shouldn't make a difference. Is that true? I was thinking to go get one, since plugging in the terminator seemed to be the only thing that made a difference, but my understanding is that it really shouldn't make any difference...

Both 3-pin and 5-pin versions of a terminator, DMX have the same value resistor soldered between pins 2&3.

...Try a Deep Clear of the console. Turn it off, then hold down the 7, 8, and 9 keys, then while still holding them down, turn the board back on and don't release until the startup sequence completes. Obviously, don't do this unless everything you need from the board is backed up, as it will erase everything.

Not certain, but I don't think that works for an Idea console.

...Anyone have any thoughts about what's going on here? ...

If it's not a console malfunction, my guess is that, in the conversion from D5F to D3F, the wires on pins 2&3 were reversed. My favorite DMX tool, Doug Fleenor Design - DMX512 Line Tester , would tell you. ETC Tech Services at 1.800.688.4116 could also tell you what colors the wires are supposed to be and how to do a factory reset, and other diagnostics.

 

[HansH]

...Try a Deep Clear of the console. Turn it off, then hold down the 7, 8, and 9 keys, then while still holding them down, turn the board back on and don't release until the startup sequence completes. Obviously, don't do this unless everything you need from the board is backed up, as it will erase everything.

Not certain, but I don't think that works for an Idea console.

Just as a point of clarification, the 7, 8, 9 deep clear method does work for the Idea console -- I just tried it on the bench with an Idea 36. As mentioned by rochem, be sure that you do have everything you need from the console backed up (and verify that backup) before doing a deep clear.

 

[techno89]

Just as a point of clarification, the 7, 8, 9 deep clear method does work for the Idea console -- I just tried it on the bench with an Idea 36. As mentioned by rochem, be sure that you do have everything you need from the console backed up (and verify that backup) before doing a deep clear.

^^^^^
That is why I love ETC. They will still help you out even if you've got an Idea console. Just awesome people and support.

 

[adickerson]

Thanks again, so much for all of your responses!

I can get back into the space in a few minutes (theater by night, dance rehearsal studio by day...), so I'll try the deep clear the board when I can get back in there - the board has never been used in our theater, so I don't have to worry about any backups, but thanks for the warning.

However, even with the deep clear, that wouldn't then explain why the same thing happens with the Elation board?

I did actually try reversing the 2 and 3 pin a couple days ago when the problem first arose, and it unfortunately did not do the trick.

I can pretty much assume that the 3-pin after-market wiring in the Idea board is ok, since it did work just fine in our other theater which has all 3-pin connections.

I should also mention that the old board that the Idea is replacing is a Microvision, which has been functioning just fine for the last 3 or 4 years. It is now in the other theater, with a 5-pin to 3-pin adapter (made from the same cables I frankensteined to make the 1st adapter) and working just fine on the 3-pin dimmers.

Ugh! This one has really got me stumped!

 

[derekleffew]

Now we're getting somewhere...
So the dimmers in the theatre/dance studio were fine with the MicroVision and Leprecon, but don't like the Idea or the Elation SceneSetter. Is that accurate? What make and model are the dimmers?

 

[adickerson]

Yes! That is absolutely accurate. The dimmers are Colortran Model 200-701. Anything come to mind?

Now we're getting somewhere...
So the dimmers in the theatre/dance studio were fine with the MicroVision and Leprecon, but don't like the Idea or the Elation SceneSetter. Is that accurate? What make and model are the dimmers?

 

[techno89]

Yes! That is absolutely accurate. The dimmers are Colortran Model 200-701. Anything come to mind?

Maybe something with the DMX refresh rate, I'm not sure where or if there is a setting for it on the idea, I'm sure there would be

 

[derekleffew]

...The dimmers are Colortran Model 200-701. ...

aka Dimension 192.

Packs or racks?

What I was wondering is whether the DMX timings are slightly different between the Idea and MicroVision, and the dimmers are finicky enough that it matters. I never used these dimmers with anything other than AMX and CMX. If ETC can't help, I'd call Doug Fleenor or Milton Davis at Doug Fleenor Design - Ph. and Fax (805) 481-9599 in the morning--one of them will know.

EDIT: I see you're in Brooklyn. You might also shoot SteveB a PM, as he has lots of experience with D192 dimmers and is also in Brooklyn. Though he'll likely tell you to call Steve Short at http://www.litetrol.com/ .

 

[DavidNorth]

This sounds to me like you may have Data- missing somewhere in your DMX wiring. This is based on the facts:

- The Idea puts out DMX that works
- Swapping pins 2 and 3 makes no improvement
- Putting a terminator in made a BIG difference but did not result in proper control

My guess is that Pin 2 is open somewhere in your DMX cabling in the space as it is indeed possible that some consoles can control some dimmers using only Data+ and Common. When DMX Common is strapped to AC Ground in the console and the receiver chips in the dimmers are RS-485 [instead of RS-422], you can run on only 2 wires [yes this is the secret answer for those wanting to run on two conductors - although not always reliable].

If this were me, I would check my cables out next.

Let us know,

David

 

[FMEng]

This sounds to me like you may have Data- missing somewhere in your DMX wiring. This is based on the facts:

- The Idea puts out DMX that works
- Swapping pins 2 and 3 makes no improvement
- Putting a terminator in made a BIG difference but did not result in proper control

My guess is that Pin 2 is open somewhere in your DMX cabling in the space as it is indeed possible that some consoles can control some dimmers using only Data+ and Common. When DMX Common is strapped to AC Ground in the console and the receiver chips in the dimmers are RS-485 [instead of RS-422], you can run on only 2 wires [yes this is the secret answer for those wanting to run on two conductors - although not always reliable].

If this were me, I would check my cables out next.

Let us know,

David

Given that someone has modified the console for 3 pin DMX, I would suspect that the conversion wasn't wired correctly. If one of the two data lines was put on pin 1, instead of ground, the results would be very unpredictable. It's also possible that the mod wasn't done in a journeyman like manner, and has a cold solder, a short, or has simply fallen apart. It is time to start at the beginning and return the console to stock and ensure it is put together right.

 

[mstaylor]

At first thought it would seem a bad conversion job on the Idea would be the obvious answer until you introduce the second board that doesn't work either. At that point it sounds more like either a cable problem or something in the rate of DMX not playing nice with the dimmers.
Maybe try taking it over to where you moved the old board, the Microvision, and see if the Idea works on those dimmers. If it does then I would definitely go to Fleener to see what he has to adjust the refresh rate.

 

[adickerson]

Thanks, all, for these great suggestions. I've been in the theater trying to implement them. Unfortunately, to no avail.

What I have been able to conclude is that there is clearly a communication issue between the dimmers and 2 different boards, which seem to be having the same exact troubles - and while the Idea board seems like it could definitely have some faulty wiring, since it has the same exact problem as the board that has never been opened up since coming from the factory, I'm tending to think that the issue may be with the dimmers, or some other sleeper problem that was already existing in our space. If that's the case, it's certainly a more involved troubleshooting session than I will be able to tackle tonight.

Thanks again for all the insights, and I'll be sure to update the thread once we're able to figure out the solution.

 

[adickerson]

At first thought it would seem a bad conversion job on the Idea would be the obvious answer until you introduce the second board that doesn't work either. At that point it sounds more like either a cable problem or something in the rate of DMX not playing nice with the dimmers.
Maybe try taking it over to where you moved the old board, the Microvision, and see if the Idea works on those dimmers. If it does then I would definitely go to Fleener to see what he has to adjust the refresh rate.

Yes, the Idea works in the other theater with those dimmers (elation DP-415 packs). The breakdown is that all 4 boards that I have (Idea 48, Microvision, Leprecon LM-850, and Elation Scene Setter 24) work with the elation dimmers, but only 2 of the 4 boards (Leprecon and Microvision) work with the Colortran dimmers. To add to that - the 2 that don't work with the colortran dimmers both have 3-pin outs, while the others have 5 - I originally assumed that this was somehow the problem, but I'm now realizing that that may or may not be relevant.

 

[mstaylor]

It's not relevant because the 5 pin only uses three pins. The next easiest thing to check is the line that goes from the board to dimmers, see if there is something odd with the ground. I suspect you are going to need something to change your rate of refresh. Go back to reply 12 and check a couple of the leads he gave you there.

 

[dramatech]

There seems to be some very good advice from some knowlegable persons. That being said, the first thing that I would do is to check continuity on this 3 pin to 5 pin adaptor. It should check out with pin 1 to pin 1, pin 2 to pin 2 and pin 3 to pin 3. Now at the same time check to see that none of the pins are shorted to each other, and that none of the pins are connected to the shell of the connector at either end.

The next possibilty and not a very pleasant one to check or solve, is the simple fact that DMX from 1986 to 1990 was a different standard than the DMX after 1990. Many times the two will cooperte and communicate with each other, but there are times that they won't. When they don't cooperate, funky things occur that are almost unexplainable.

Quite a number of years ago, I was the master electrician for a show in a theme park, that had all of the hand me downs from the other theatres in the park. We purchased some forerunner scrollers and a few recycled ibeams, to add to the already dimmers of four different manufactures. The board was a Strand palette 90. Two days before the opening of the show, we finally had all of the equipment installed, and during our first effort to patch, we had scrollers running all over the place and I-beams going nuts. A phone call to Doug Fleenor, suggested that we had timing issues from the two different DMX standards. His solution was to use just one input of one of his mergers between the board and the remaining items. A merger was shipped overnight and once plugged into the system, everything operated perfectly.
What happens with this procedure is that there are devices, that will work with any of the DMX generations, and then ouput the DMX USITT 1990 DMX.
This is a shot in the dark, but can be an expensive fix for a facility that has little budget, that might be indicated in this case by the age and makes of the equipment that you are using. There are other options than purchasing the more expensive and proven mergers of the "Rolls Royce" companies such as Doug Fleenor. Elation and Chauvet both make a merger, I have one that I got off of ebay as a circuit board only where you package it. That was from ELM video in Alabama. I also have an encoder board, again only a circuit board, That takes 8 analog inputs and puts them into DMX on a DMX signal. In the latter case, just use the DMX input into the encoder board and use the output of that board. You can ignore the analog inputs. That board I got from Northlight Systems DMX512 interface products, use DMX512 to drive LED's, control relays and RC servo's or output analog 0-10 VDC.. Both units are designed, manufactured and sold by an individual working out of their home. For me and my abilities they work just fine, if you want the best and guaranteed quality, you go with Doug Fleenor.
The down side is this might not be your problem, and could be and expensive attempt at correction.

Tom Johnson
Florida's Most Honored Community Theatre

 

[SteveB]

Derek wrote:

Now we're getting somewhere...
So the dimmers in the theatre/dance studio were fine with the MicroVision and Leprecon, but don't like the Idea or the Elation SceneSetter. Is that accurate? What make and model are the dimmers?

To which you wrote:

That is absolutely accurate. The dimmers are Colortran Model 200-701. Anything come to mind ?

It sounds like a timing issue, or possibly bad grounding in the adapters. The photo looks like 12 packs as opposed to a D192 full rack. Since the problem is with more then one D192 module/pack, it sounds like timing or termination/grounding issues.

FWIW, I have 2 D192 packs that were modified to listen to DMX, by - of course, Steve at LiteTrol. They have worked flawlessly with an Express console for 13 years. That's not to say that the older Idea, nor the Elation can't have a different DMX that the D192's don't like and Derek is correct that the best person to ask is indeed, Steve Short at Litetrol. 1 516 681 5288.