Fire curtain test

[Jay Ashworth]

[ Here's another example of why people don't always want to be identified on postings; it might deprive the forum of the chance to improve overall safety if people won't ask questions for fear of incurring liability. ]

We did the regular test of our drop fire curtain at one of my houses this week. The manual trip engaged immediately, and the curtain, as expected, took about 5 seconds to drop from trim height to, say, 7 or 8 feet from the deck, where it hit the dash pot.

I expected, then, another 10-20 seconds to the deck, but it seemed more like 45-60.

What's the expected (or AHJ required) fall time for the rest of the travel?

 

[RonHebbard]

[ Here's another example of why people don't always want to be identified on postings; it might deprive the forum of the chance to improve overall safety if people won't ask questions for fear of incurring liability. ]

We did the regular test of our drop fire curtain at one of my houses this week. The manual trip engaged immediately, and the curtain, as expected, took about 5 seconds to drop from trim height to, say, 7 or 8 feet from the deck, where it hit the dash pot.

I expected, then, another 10-20 seconds to the deck, but it seemed more like 45-60.

What's the expected (or AHJ required) fall time for the rest of the travel?

I've seen one that'd land, bounce back up a couple of feet then just sit there without ever coming in for a final landing.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.

 

[Van]

Here ya go; NFPA 80 Chapt 20 pg. 6 but AS always Local AHJ trumps.

 

[Footer]

NFPA is pretty clear on this one...

Nfpa 80.20.8

• Footer
• Sep 27, 2016

 

[JD]

Interesting. "Not less than 5 seconds." So, they don't want it to be too fast, but they don't give an upper limit. So, it the curtain is at 20 feet in height it could take 40 seconds to close based on a full closing.

 

[egilson1]

It use to be it needed to close within 30 seconds, but that meant that really big heavy framed fire curtians were moving at high speed and with a ton of energy. Try slowing that down. Several years ago they changed it to the average speed method.

From ANSI 1.22-2009
11.10 In emergency closing, the curtain shall close from any position to the full closed position at an average speed of not less than 0.305 m/second (1 foot/second). The last 2.44 m (8 feet) of travel shall require a minimum of 5 seconds. (See Annex note B.11.10.)
11.11 Emergency closing speed shall be either governed during the curtain's entire travel, or shall be decelerated for the last 2.44 m (8 feet) of its travel. Deceleration shall be accomplished by dashpot, mechanical brake, or other device. Removing weight from the curtain side or adding weight to the counterweight side is not permitted for achieving deceleration. (See Annex note B.11.11.)
11.12 All fire safety curtains shall be in the closed position except during events with an audience, rehearsals, technical production activity, or activities on stage that necessitate the curtain be open. (See Annex note B.11.12.)

There is an effort by the NFPA and ESTA to make the code and standard mirror each other to avoid conflicting data.

 

[Scarrgo]

and so if I have a fire curtain that is not automatic, do I still need to keep it closed during off hours?

 

[Footer]

and so if I have a fire curtain that is not automatic, do I still need to keep it closed during off hours?

I have always found that part of it rather interesting. We always close the fire wall in my larger space every night. Its 40'x30' 1' wide steel wall that weighs approximately 14 tons. Its motorized so its rather easy to move. We are the only place I have ever worked or seen that does this. For us, its more for security then anything else. My feeling is if your wall/curtain was designed to be operated daily, do it. Many systems are not and this qualification is ignored.

On a sidenote, we recently had all of the mechanical systems on our wall replaced last year. Its now running on JR Clancy's Traction drive hoist for fire curtains. It moves way different now then it did when we just had a dashpot. It takes longer to start moving and is much more consistant with the drop. You also don't get the dash pot slam that we used to get. If I get a chance to in the next few days I'll do a drop and shoot a movie of it. I have video of what the old standard looked like as well.

 

[SteveB]

We used to close the fire curtain, then the motor got old and we were told by PDO to maybe not be doing that if we wanted the curtain to go out.

Currently the motor is completely disconnected from it's power source. The fused ink and pull rope mechanisms are all still in place, but we are not doing a test.

The college is supposed to be working on funding and a plan to bring all up to code, including integration with the fire alarm system, we are really, really hoping they don't find it cheaper to install a deluge.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

and so if I have a fire curtain that is not automatic, do I still need to keep it closed during off hours?

Yes. And I am the one to thank or curse for that. My first code change, in 1987. Got a problem with it? OK with you the at that time the major rigging companies estimated 75 to 100 percent of all DSC in us would not work? Interested that in a 5 year period there were 26 fires on stages, and in 5 of them fire service were injured when they fell off the stage? That got the fire service votes.

Next.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

It use to be it needed to close within 30 seconds, but that meant that really big heavy framed fire curtians were moving at high speed and with a ton of energy. Try slowing that down. Several years ago they changed it to the average speed method.

From ANSI 1.22-2009
11.10 In emergency closing, the curtain shall close from any position to the full closed position at an average speed of not less than 0.305 m/second (1 foot/second). The last 2.44 m (8 feet) of travel shall require a minimum of 5 seconds. (See Annex note B.11.10.)
11.11 Emergency closing speed shall be either governed during the curtain's entire travel, or shall be decelerated for the last 2.44 m (8 feet) of its travel. Deceleration shall be accomplished by dashpot, mechanical brake, or other device. Removing weight from the curtain side or adding weight to the counterweight side is not permitted for achieving deceleration. (See Annex note B.11.11.)
11.12 All fire safety curtains shall be in the closed position except during events with an audience, rehearsals, technical production activity, or activities on stage that necessitate the curtain be open. (See Annex note B.11.12.)

There is an effort by the NFPA and ESTA to make the code and standard mirror each other to avoid conflicting data.

Don't miss the fact that NFPA 80 is the law of the land in many jurisdictions, and E 1.22 is a voluntary standard. And thereby hangs a tale.

 

[Scarrgo]

I am not cursing you Bill,
It was my understanding that if your(fire curtain) was built/installed before the update you were grandfathered unless you were doing renovations (stage rigging) than the fire curtain had to be updated to conform to the new code. There was another venue in town that revamped all there rigging, and had there curtain updated to a motorized fire curtain and they close it during off hours.
We had a rigging inspection two years ago, and if I remember right, they said if we did any rigging upgrades/reno's it would have to be done...

Ours has white line(w/lead weight tied on end of rope) tied around the rail rope, have two pull ring stations(not sure what they are called) and links....and its at least a two person job to pull it out and retie the white rope line...and ours was brought in once several years ago...

Sean...

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

I am not cursing you Bill,
It was my understanding that if your(fire curtain) was built/installed before the update you were grandfathered unless you were doing renovations (stage rigging) than the fire curtain had to be updated to conform to the new code. There was another venue in town that revamped all there rigging, and had there curtain updated to a motorized fire curtain and they close it during off hours.
We had a rigging inspection two years ago, and if I remember right, they said if we did any rigging upgrades/reno's it would have to be done...

Ours has white line(w/lead weight tied on end of rope) tied around the rail rope, have two pull ring stations(not sure what they are called) and links....and its at least a two person job to pull it out and retie the white rope line...and ours was brought in once several years ago...

Sean...

Correct in that you are grandfathered on not having to, for instance, motorize your greater than 800 sq ft curtain, but not grandfathered on maintenance and testing and the closed during non production times. The old one is OK but it still has to work. The requirements for "new" simply make it more likely and easier to comply with the maintenance and testing requirements.

 

[Scarrgo]

Thanks Bill...

Sean...

 

[Evans Poulos]

One local school near me apparently has no choice but to close it at night. It won't stay up...
They sometimes have to raise it at intermission as it has crept down 10 or more feet during act 1...
Noisy little (big!) bugger too!

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Could that be Lane Tech? It was a fascinating water hydraulic machine - a fully "motorized" fire safety curtain 100+ years ago - and the machinery and rigging been replaced or repaired.

 

[Evans Poulos]

Ding ding ding
Last year, they wrote lines into Our Town for the stage manager to cover raising it back up mid show. Twice.