OK, we have finalized what is going in the pockets. They will be two section pockets, one side high vo;tage, the other low voltage. The water and drains will seperate pockets dedicated to just this function. The only problem I face now is my bosses say it will be bid to electricians to do all the work. I try to explain that it should be bid as the electricians setting the pockets, pulling everything and terminating the high voltage side. Then a second contractor should do the terminations of all the low voltage componets. They seem to think the electricians can do it all. I try to explain they aren't really qualified to do that and it is like hiring a carpenter to paint your house. He can do it but not well.
Floor pocket requirements
- Thread startermstaylor
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I would agree with you, although in some areas of the country the Electricians do routinely have people who are well qualified in and experienced with low voltage cabling. But that is not true in many areas such as here where Electricians are typically not that experienced with many low voltage cabling issues and there is even a separate Low Voltage Contractor's license.
I often argue that the low voltage cabling and terminations should be part of any related systems work in order to have one point of responsibility. If you separate the cabling and systems work you split the responsibility, if something doesn't work or works poorly it can become an exercise in finger pointing with each side blaming the other. If a mic or other connection does not work the first step becomes deciding who is responsible and if you go the wrong way you may end up paying for it, quite literally as in paying for a service call by the party who it turns out was not responsible. There is also the issue of how do you address the termination at the sound system, you may have to include some intermediate termination so the E.C. wires from the floor boxes to that point and the audio contractor from that to the sound system, thus neither directly impact the other's work. Again, in some areas of the country it is common for the Audio Contractor to wire the rack with connectorized pigtails and the E.C. to wire to wall plates, then you plug the rack into the wall plates.
If nothing else, if they do decide to include the low voltage cabling in the Electrical Contractor's work then make sure that the specs include extensive testing and documentation of the cabling, something that clearly shows the cable has been thoroughly tested and that the E.C. takes responsibility for the work.
I often argue that the low voltage cabling and terminations should be part of any related systems work in order to have one point of responsibility. If you separate the cabling and systems work you split the responsibility, if something doesn't work or works poorly it can become an exercise in finger pointing with each side blaming the other. If a mic or other connection does not work the first step becomes deciding who is responsible and if you go the wrong way you may end up paying for it, quite literally as in paying for a service call by the party who it turns out was not responsible. There is also the issue of how do you address the termination at the sound system, you may have to include some intermediate termination so the E.C. wires from the floor boxes to that point and the audio contractor from that to the sound system, thus neither directly impact the other's work. Again, in some areas of the country it is common for the Audio Contractor to wire the rack with connectorized pigtails and the E.C. to wire to wall plates, then you plug the rack into the wall plates.
If nothing else, if they do decide to include the low voltage cabling in the Electrical Contractor's work then make sure that the specs include extensive testing and documentation of the cabling, something that clearly shows the cable has been thoroughly tested and that the E.C. takes responsibility for the work.
The cabling is going to terminate in a bay system. I will actually have many mic imputs than exist on my board, the next expansion. I will be able to connect whichever floor pocket input to whichever fader in the patch bay. I am supposed to get an A&H to replace my Mackie and I hope to get more faders so I will have to do less repatching.
I used to work for an electrical contractor specializing in communications cabling. They did not do too much on the sound side of things, mostly fiber and phone/data. In Illinois you actually go paid more to do high voltage work then low voltage work. They claimed it was due to the hazard involved in high voltage work.
Odds are it will be the same company but two separate guys. IBEW has a different classification for low voltage electricians and they tend to stick to that. Most the guys who do low voltage work do it because its a bit easier work and your odds of being up on a pole are less. I would not worry too much about it.
Odds are it will be the same company but two separate guys. IBEW has a different classification for low voltage electricians and they tend to stick to that. Most the guys who do low voltage work do it because its a bit easier work and your odds of being up on a pole are less. I would not worry too much about it.
That sound like you are addressing the differences between different geographic areas. In some areas, especially those where IBEW and Unions in general are very strong (New York, Philadelphia, Chicago, St. Louis, etc.), the situation you noted is often true and Electrical Contractors often have people who specialize in low voltage systems cabling. But in other areas, such as here in Georgia, this is often handled by two different parties and many Electrical Contractors do not work in low voltage or only work in certain areas.
Part of that is likely because not only is Georgia a 'right to work' state but also has separate licensing for Low Voltage Contractors, with a further four different classifications within that; General, Telecommunications, Alarm and Unrestricted (which covers all of the other three areas). So someone could be a licensed Contractor for telecom (voice/data) and/or alarm but not for audio, which falls under the General heading. And unlike some states or proposals put forth in other states, a licensed Electrical Contractor is not automatically licensed for low voltage work, they are separate licenses.
What is common here and in many other areas is for an Electrical Contractor to contract for all Electrical and Low Voltage work and then subcontract the low voltage part of the work to a separate Low Voltage Contractor. Part of that approach is a legacy of the old CSI Master Format that used to include the low voltage work in the Electrical specifications (which was never intended to be a division of work but typically had that effect) and part of it is due to overlap and coordination related to raceway, conduit, boxes, etc., which are typically handled by the E.C.
Chris, you are correct, I should have put high voltage in quotations marks. The "high voltage" side is 110v and 208v three phase. The low votage side is really sound and communications.
Now we are like Georgia, there are two union cntractors with-in 60 miles and they specialize in big state contracts including schools and trafic devices. The last tiime I dealt with one of them they wired strip lights incorrectly. They had 1,2,3,4, wired together and didn't understand why that was a problem.
Now we are like Georgia, there are two union cntractors with-in 60 miles and they specialize in big state contracts including schools and trafic devices. The last tiime I dealt with one of them they wired strip lights incorrectly. They had 1,2,3,4, wired together and didn't understand why that was a problem.
Chris, a good example of geographic variations. That may be true for you but for the US NEC defines the electrical classifications and state licensing defines the related licensing. Unfortunately, NEC does not actually define "low voltage" and this causes much confusion. NEC instead addresses multiple applications and classes under several different Articles that would traditionally be considered to address "low voltage" circuits. In fact one can even argue that based on the NEC anything under 600VAC is not high voltage and therefore is low voltage.
However, your comment does bring up one of the issues commonly encountered. Many amplifier outputs are well above 50VAC or even 120VAC, thus a voltage not much different than AC power. Many amps can also output current near or at that of many power circuits. For example, if an amp delivers 2,000W into 8 ohms that is 126VAC and 16A, in effect equivalent to a typical branch power circuit. Some amplifier outputs do indeed technically have to be treated just like power but in many cases there is a gray area regarding such issues. For NEC you actually have to look at what the amplifier says is the applicable wiring classification and that is not always information that is easy to find, you typically have to look at the back of the amp itself or find a good enough picture of the rear panel so that you can read the rating.
It is probably pretty obvious that can be a confusing and easily misunderstood subject even for electrical and audio pros, much less for DIYers.
In my experience locally, if the electrician can't wire nut it, lug it or bug it, they probably need to leave it alone. When it comes to soldering or cutting down a cat5 cable they are lost. I will say that is a generalization and probably not entirely fair but my concern is some guy in there trying to build a patchbay with all that soldering and no clue what it does or why. This is how I got strips wired in groups of four. It was certainly within his nowledge base but he had no understanding what he was wiring or how it worked so he couldn't apply his knowledge of troubleshooting and foresee the problem before it was completed.
There is a reason I went back to the IEC not referring to AS anything, as in fact your NEC is non compliant with the international definitions of the IEC.
The comment about power levels is particularly true if 100v distributed line systems are involved. I believe the rules for LV communications (which is what speaker cabling would fall under) down here are such to require double insulation. That kicks in at 50 V AC RMS.
Folks let's not delude ourselves here... Speaker wiring can kill you almost as easily as mains wiring...
I certainly will not try to argue that all of the NEC makes sense or that it agrees with any other accepted standards or practices. Even the experts can't seem to agree on some of the issues and compliance is often up to an individual's interpretation. But it is what we have to work with here in the US.
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