Foggers/Hazers with Beam Smoke Detectors and Fire Marshal

[NickVon]

So here is the trouble, and the question of whom to talk to about functionality if possible.

Our building has 4 Beam smoke detectors across the audience seating. In the past if the genie lift goes up in the sight line we set the system off and need to start making phone calls to campus security and call in the false alarm These kind of smoke sensors are apparently appropriately installed and very high end. The trouble is that because the are incorporated in to our ADT/Emergency Service Alert panel; things like foggers/hazers also set them off (as they should in practicality of course)

We've frequently had groups some community theatre, some partner of ours, and proffesional theatre companies come in and ask about the use of these devices. As of right now the answer is no because...well they set of the alarm . I've gotten several different responses from our local FD but neither where the same, or complete.

Is it usually possible to Request? Rent? a fire marshal for to deactivate the Audible alarm and Alarm broadcast out to ADT while they are present in in the theatre for a group that wishes to use such devices?

I've been told by one fire official, that a fire alarm system can never be willfully disabled or silenced by anyone. Though in the past i'm sure high school shows i was involved in got around this by having local FD on call with a presence at the Venue. Do any of you facility people or others have any experience with this situations out side of publicly funded school districts and colleges?

The Stage and performance space and stage opens up right into the seating so things like wind walls or fans/high/low pressure to keep such effects upstage aren't practicable.

PS( Let me know if this is better posted in the special Effects Board

 

[Footer]

Yes, they can be deactivated. Usually what they will do is turn off the optical alarms and keep on heat sensors. The condition you then have to go into is called a "fire watch". Essentially you have to have someone on staff that is there to act as a smoke alarm. Some places require this be a member of the local fire dept.


In my wife's venue this is a pretty big deal, being that it is a state owned building on the capital's ground. If their alarm trips, it does so silently. An alarm goes off backstage. You then have 1 minute to hit the abort button to stop the fire curtain from automatically falling. If no one hits a button on the alarm panel backstage after 2 minutes the alarm in the theatre goes off. When they have to use haze they have to call the security (state police) office, have them turn off the optical alarms, and as soon as the event is over they turn them back on. They don't actually turn the optical sensors off, they just make it so they don't trip the alarm.

 

[NickVon]

Yes, they can be deactivated. Usually what they will do is turn off the optical alarms and keep on heat sensors. The condition you then have to go into is called a "fire watch". Essentially you have to have someone on staff that is there to act as a smoke alarm. Some places require this be a member of the local fire dept.


In my wife's venue this is a pretty big deal, being that it is a state owned building on the capital's ground. If their alarm trips, it does so silently. An alarm goes off backstage. You then have 1 minute to hit the abort button to stop the fire curtain from automatically falling. If no one hits a button on the alarm panel backstage after 2 minutes the alarm in the theatre goes off. When they have to use haze they have to call the security (state police) office, have them turn off the optical alarms, and as soon as the event is over they turn them back on. They don't actually turn the optical sensors off, they just make it so they don't trip the alarm.

Do you think that the the "silencing" or Disconnect of the optical beams would be something to call ADT about or the FD?

when they have tripped in the past there is a silence option on the panel, but the alert of the trips still sends out to ADT immediately. They will call into campus security, and start dispatch unless i call security and notify them of a false alarm. in which case the FD still obviously has to come out and check the building anyways and reset the system.

Any thoughts on a FD official being a "smoke alarm being included" in hurray we pay taxes come and see a free show and be our smoke alarm. Or is there a rate to be paid for this service. It seems just for safety and liability issues that just any old person being the "smoke" alarm seems like a problem.

 

[Footer]

Any thoughts on a FD official being a "smoke alarm being included" in hurray we pay taxes come and see a free show and be our smoke alarm. Or is there a rate to be paid for this service. It seems just for safety and liability issues that just any old person being the "smoke" alarm seems like a problem.

It really just depends on your fire marshal as to what they require. I have done shows with fire onstage and alarms off for haze where all the fire marshal required was a person on either side of stage with a fire extinguisher next to them. The only thing they were assigned was to be that fire extinguisher. I have been in other places where we had to hire an off duty fireman to come in with a radio. Either way, it all just depends on your AHJ.

As far as the disconnection goes, ADT would probably be the people to talk to. They should be able to put a hold of some kind on that alarm. What I would always do is if you are running a fogger call security before you turn it on just to give them a heads up. Firepulls still work, heat detectors still work, even with the optical alarms off.

 

[theatre4jc]

At my facility we haze 3 times a week. Each time before turning on the haze I have to call our security off. They in turn call our alarm company (ADT I think) and ask them to put the system into bypass mode. Basically they just don't respond unless called. Our security turns off the alarm alerts. On the control panel in our security office all the detectors still go off just not the alerts in the room. I know many systems are different but that's just how ours works.

 

[Sayen]

I have a similar system - is there any reason these things keep getting installed into theaters? Between haze and moving curtains and scenery, they seem like an exceedingly poor choices of detectors.

 

[Footer]

I have a similar system - is there any reason these things keep getting installed into theaters? Between haze and moving curtains and scenery, they seem like an exceedingly poor choices of detectors.

They are extremely efficient. They cover a large area and don't require that much wiring. Also, the idea of smoke/haze is rarely brought up when the systems are designed. Ideal you have both optical and heat detectors installed.

 

[rsmentele]

We had the same delema in my theater. What we were able to do is have the original system installer come in and install a keyed bypass switch to our optical sensors, it only bypasses the theatre's system, all sensors located in other parts of the building remain active, and the system still remains active using the heat sensors. The only person authorized to bypass the system is myself, so with that I take the liability/ responsibilty to ensure our fire saftey. The overide only remains active for 4 hours, the system automatically resets itself after that time, incase we forget to reset it manually following a performance/rehearsal. Of course, you have to check with your state and city reguarding their specific occupancy laws relating to the detection system. There is another theater in town, which deactivates their sensors with covers made for that purpose, but they also have two other detection methods in the space to cover for the opticals when they cannot be active.

But before you do anything check with the fire marshall for sure. A smoke effect is not worth losing your occupancy permit, and shutting down the whole production.

 

[mixmaster]

I have a similar system - is there any reason these things keep getting installed into theaters? Between haze and moving curtains and scenery, they seem like an exceedingly poor choices of detectors.

I've been on all three sides of this issue. I have 2 venues with smoke detectors installed in the theater space, I spent several years installing fire alarms for a company similar to ADT, and I am a fireman.

Fire detection devices keep getting installed in theaters because the various life safety codes (NFPA 72, 110,) require there be detection in places where large numbers of people congregate. Incorrect devices get installed because of lack of knowledge on the part of the system designer, or the authority having jurisdiction. The first section of NFPA 72 says that the fire cheif/inspector has final say over the design and implementation of any fire safety systems, and I'm sorry to say that some of them still operate under the idea that more smoke detectors the better. As a past installer I don't happen to agree with this mentality because there is also a section of NFPA72 that requires the system be installed in such a manner that reduces and limits false alarms. I believe that system design is included in that, and technology in that field has advanced significantly in the last few years. However, I've never once won an argument with an inspector/fire chief. Even when I feel I'm correct in my interpretation of the codes, I often have more to lose in the long run. I'm often reminded of a fire alarm system that a company I worked for installed in a cabinet shop. Our company designer wanted to do heat detection without smokes in the shop, but the local fire marshal insisted on smokes. Period, end of discussion. Shrug, OK. So once a month the smokes would get full of dust, trip a false alarm, and we would have to go in a clean/calibrate them. It was a bad design, but it made the fire inspector happy. Eventually the false alarms caused enough of an uproar that the inspector let us change the smokes out for heats, but us being proven right, against his judgment, spoiled our relationship for many projects down the road.
The best thing you can do is work with your local fire marshal and find out what they are happy with. Personally I'm against the idea of disabling an entire alarm system when the building is full of people, and I know from experience that most systems allow you to disable zones or points, but disabling points requires that there be someone on site, with proper authority, who knows enough about the system to do it. I've done installs where no one on site could do that. My experience is that it's best to approach your local authority with an open mind, plenty of respect, and a willingness to work together, rather than demands and complaints, and ask how they would feel comfortable deal with XYZ problem. I recently had to talk to our chief about fire proofing treatments for our curtains. After a brief discussion, he just handed me his copy of 701 and told me to figure it out and let him know what we were doing. The trick here is that we are fostering a good working relationship that takes both our needs and his interpretation of the code into account.
You should also take into account your school's insurance and liability policy. I can remember putting in systems that were dictated by an owners' insurance and liability policies that made no sense at the time, but was required by the insurance company to insure them or saved the client money on premiums. It's called risk management. As with the fire marshal, sometimes discussion and common sense prevail, sometimes you just have to bow your head to their almighty dollar.
Matt

 

[NickVon]

There is a lot of good info in these replies and i thank you for that. As do the others that apparently have run in to this situation as well.

Seems like talking with the Local Fire-marshal is Step one
Then working with campus security and ADT as far as protocols and steps for bypassing the system once we know if and to what extent we are able to.

 

[ruinexplorer]

I have a similar system - is there any reason these things keep getting installed into theaters? Between haze and moving curtains and scenery, they seem like an exceedingly poor choices of detectors.

This type of system is extremely efficient for a venue where you have an uneven ceiling. First off, when you have an essentially corregated ceiling you need a large number of sensors to cover every pocket created in that ceiling at a set distance apart. That can be quite expensive. Also, there can be some delay in that type of system based off of how the air flow may prevent the smoke from properly triggering the system.

The best thing to do is as has been previously suggested in working with your administration to check on insurance policies, the fire marshall, and the alarm monitoring company. If you aren't sure how to go about this, there are probably other theaters or other venues (convention center or hotel conference center) that will have policies set forth and can help direct you.

If they do allow for a partial system bypass, you will have to have trained personnel on hand and a documented plan of action. Remember, these codes were written after there were disasters in the attempt to avoid future loss of life.