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"Green" fluorescent tubes.

Discussion in 'Lighting and Electrics' started by gafftapegreenia, Feb 22, 2008.

  1. gafftapegreenia

    gafftapegreenia CBMod CB Mods

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    I'm currently designing a production of The Woolgatherer. Our design goal is to create a one-room apartment space that is as craptastic and hobbled together as possible while remaining realistic. To assist in gaining this look, part of my design includes the use of fluorescent ceiling light. Here's my question: which fluorescent tubes will give me the nastiest greenish light I can find? I'm primarily looking for part/model numbers here, as well as which color temperatures to look for. I know I could always hit some nicer tubes with some Tough Plusgreen, but I'd like to start with the tubes.
     
  2. DaveySimps

    DaveySimps CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

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    I realize it is not 100% what you are looking for, but did you think of GamTubes? You could place these with a light greenish gel over any fluorescent tubes to creat the exact color you are looking for. Just a thought.

    ~Dave

    http://www.gamonline.com/index.php
     
  3. gafftapegreenia

    gafftapegreenia CBMod CB Mods

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    Thing is, I know about those, but I'd like to know which tubes will give me the best results/most green to begin with to give me a starting point. I'm evaluating my options.

    Oh, if it helps I'd probably want 4' tubes.

    Apollo has tubes also, of course they don't have much in the ways of plusgreen. (Another hint for more Apollo gels, along with cyc frosts, kelite, your young designers are waiting, hint hint)
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2008
  4. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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    If this is a design to be executed, I have to agree with DaveySimps. Go to your lamp supplier, be it Bulbs-R-Us or HomeImprovementWarehouse, and buy CoolWhite tubes, then cover them in ≥L245. Why buy a lamp you'll never want to use again after the show?

    If this is a classroom exercise, (I believe you ARE in Lighting Design Class), I still have to agree with the above route. There's no fluorescent tube I know of that is specifically designed to emit "ugly green light." Who would buy it? "Green" is a perception, somewhat mistaken, of 5500K tubes. They do have a large spike around 500nm, but the human eye "corrects" for the spike for the most part, while a camera does not.

    In either case, I'm sure you are aware of the control issues involved in dimming fluorescents. I might even consider using Lumalines to give the appearance of fluorescent fixtures, again sleeved, but treat them as practicals, producing no usable illumination, and reinforce the "illusion of nature" (Function of Lighting#4) with the stage lighting fixtures.

    Let us know how it turns out.
     
  5. gafftapegreenia

    gafftapegreenia CBMod CB Mods

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    Fair enough. I know it's all perception any way. Still, tell me you've never noticed a "pinkish", "greenish" or "blueish" tint from a fluoro tube. I know it's color temperature and perception, and relative to comparable sources, so don't scold me derek.(Not that you were) Don't want to start the "but what is white?" thing again. Still in the early stages of the design; this is why I ask these things early.

    This is to be an executed design, so I think I'll go the sleeve route, and then after the show have a nice new worklight for the electrics shop.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2008
  6. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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    Actually, it's not so much color temperature, as "non full-energy spectral radiation" of the light source. Fluoros, HID, M-H, and other sources are notoriously "spiky", when viewed on the S.E.D. graph. Someone create a glossary entry, please.
     
  7. gafftapegreenia

    gafftapegreenia CBMod CB Mods

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    True True. Would you believe me if I said I actually had that thought in my brain zone but didn't post it?

    This show is being performed on one of the smaller stages we use. Very cute little proscenium, which is really about the size the actual apartment would be, so, in terms of scale, a ceiling fluoro might fit right in, and be low enough to give some sort of useable top light. I need to investigate further.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2008
  8. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    most of the worst fluorescent lamps were discontinued in 1986. This such as the F40/WW/EX G.E. #14493 with a color temp. of 3K, and CRI of 52 would tend to be the crappy lighting most of us in school in the 1970's remember.
    also:

    Than cool white:
    F40/CW/CVG 6pk G.E. #41436
    F40CW/EX 30pk G.E. #14656

    Later such lamps got upgraded over the years from 52 in CRI to 60 or 62 but it still was not efficient enough in lamp or light provided.

    What lamps I think you are looking for are no longer made. Even the worst, most crappy of lamps these days would get you into a crappy 75 CRI which is nowhere near how crappy it was way back when.

    Given you cannot get the lamps that it would seem you want to simulate... perhaps a resale shop might have them, none the less, perhpaps its time instead to play with gel and dimming so as to reproduce what is for you minds eye lthe design look but not the actual lamp. Find some formula to reproduce what you have in mind and it will no doubt artically be very good even if not persay accurate.

    F40/WW/EX G.E. #14493 Fluorescent Warm White Extended Service 40 w T-12 MOL 48" G-13 (CRI 52) 3,000̊K 3,150 Lum 20,000hours
     
  9. gafftapegreenia

    gafftapegreenia CBMod CB Mods

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    Thanks ship. My current plan is to get some currently available cool white fluorescents and play around with gel until I find what I'm looking for.
     
  10. BillESC

    BillESC Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Back in 1970-71 I sold industrial light bulbs for Philips. We had the F40 SeeEZ green tubes. Sold thousands of them.

    The premise was green was easier on the eyes (think green chauk boards, green road signs, etc.) and office building grabbed them up. They were only a tint of green and not garish as I suspect you're looking for.
     
  11. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Spectral distribution of a fluorescent lamp is by way of spikes of energy in certain wavelengths / color and not the linear white light color distribution of a incandescent lamp. Look into SPD graphs for fluorescent / arc lamp light distribution. Also Correlated Color Temperature CCT and Chromacity.

    What this means is if you have a lamp at 4,1K putting say a green gel next to it, you could theoretically do not much in getting that sickly tint or hue or especially in the case of that color temperature do a lot but also block out most other waves of the spectrum. Go really light green first and see what it does than say a medium green if not say into the cyan range.

    Might look into Rosco Tech Notes, "Using Cinegel for Controlling Light in Film and Video Production" Filter Facts, Rosco Laboratories, inc. It goes into a lot of detail about what to add or subject from a fluorescent so as to get a desired effect that might be useful. Stuff like them recommending Tough Plusgreen 50 for a cool white in having a distinct green cast which than on the camera is taken out by a filter. You wouldn't want to take that out with a filter and this might be the light you are looking for. Various other gels to play with in the cinegel line that might work better.

    The Beauty of Light p164-22 "The Physics of Light Color and the Psychology behind its Choice" also notes to some extent about fluorescent lamps giving ghastly lighting is not just in its color rendering but also about the un-natural shadows (or lack of them) by way of washing them out and the reflective powers on what is reflecting the light ... "Now we can see why fluorescent light can make even the loveliest complexion look ghastly. The colors we perceive depend on the spectral power distribution of the light and the reflectance of the lady’s skin. Even though the reflectance curve of the skin stays the same, if the SPD of the illuminating light changes, our perception of the lady’s complexion will change too." If you say get the set all done, than say do a very light green/white wash over them, do the same with makeup etc. it should help with this effect.
    The Beauty of Light, by Ben Bova; John Wiley & Sons, Inc., N.Y. 1988 (Really good book on lighting)



    Cool White is a good choice - especially if you get a really cheap crappy brand with a CRI of under say 70. Warm white lamps have more spikes in the red range of color so they would be bad. On the other hand, if looking for a lamp, a Deluxe Cool White or even Soft light lamp as long as not specification or deluxe specification grade might have more in the green range also.


    Found this chart in a 1960's lighting graphics text book:
    Lamp type Lamp Appearance(1) Effect on Neutral Surface(1) Effect on(2) Atmosphere Colors Strengthened Colors Grayed

    Warm White Yellowish-White Yellowish-White Warm Orange-Yellow Red/Green/Blue

    Deluxe Warm White Yellowish-White Yellowish-White Warm (blends w. Filament Red/Orange/Yellow/Green Blue

    White Pale Yellowish White Pale Yellowish White Moderately Warm Orange Yellow Red/Green/Blue

    Soft White Pinkish White Pinkish White Warm Pinkish Red/Orange Green/Blue

    Cool White White White Moderately Cool Orange/Yellow/Blue Red

    Deluxe Cool White White White Moderately Cool (Blends w. Daylight) All Nearly Equal None Appreciably

    Daylight Bluish/White Bluish/White Very Cool Green/Blue Red/Orange

    Could also try dimming the lamps some - down to the 100v range as a max for most normal dimmers and ballasts. A theory might be to use say a 3,5K lamp of low CRI and efficiency, put it on the dimmer and mechanically make a really green light source.

    Do research into the dimming subject on this website and others however should you attempt this - lots of safety and notes about it in the past. Rapid Start lamps are needed, than what dimmers and what ballasts are in use as the range can be down to almost zero with the right equipment in use. I have pages and pages of notes on the subject but short of knowing exact ballasts & dimmers would not be able to get into more detail, much less what works. In general however, don't put filament and fluorescent lamps on the same dimmer circuit & if dimming a fluorescent lamp, it should have a minimum un-dimmed burn in time of 100 hours so as to stabilize itself before attempting to dim it.

    Also in dimming a fluorescent lamp, while luminous output goes down as expected, color temperature goes up instead of down. CRI deteriorates as power decreases (thats a good thing). Be advised also that the metals making up the red part of the spectrum condense first when dimmed, this could mean pre-mature lamp failure, shortened lamp life and a lamp that even when not dimmed might not have a full spectrum output. These notes were mainly about dimming HMI lamps but are the same for all arc lamps and from: Osram Photo-Optic Lighting Products Catalog - 1999
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2008

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