Lighting Software (PC) vs. Lighting Console

[maccm8]

I have read a couple threads and some information on this, but wanted to get some feedback on my specific situation.

I am the technical director at my church and we are currently have an opportunity to possibly get a really good deal on a used lighting console, but I wanted to make sure it was the right decision.

In terms of lighting we are using 10 PAR 64 RGB LED's, 2 Elation design spots, 8 non-dimmable LED's and the house lights of course. The controller we are using is a PC loaded with Compulive2006.

I have been looking at changing at least the software for a while as I feel as if the Compulive2006 program does not have all the features that I would like to have in a lighting controller.

The Question: Should I...
1.) stick with what I have
2.) change to better functioning software(magicQ, BlueLite, etc...)
3.) purchase an ETC Express 24/48 for $2000
4.) purchase an ETC Express 48/96 for $3000
5.) purchase an ETC Obsession II Lighting Console for $3000



Please note that as we do not have a ton of fixtures right now, we are going through a major expansion and could possible be adding more fixtures soon, so I want to have the capability to utilize whatever new fixtures we come across.

Thanks for the input!

 

[derekleffew]

... as I feel as if the Compulive2006 program does not have all the features that I would like to have in a lighting controller. ...

Please list the desired features that you feel your current setup is lacking. It will help us to guide you in making your decision for the future.

 

[maccm8]

I am looking to be able to have more functional group control in a live setting. I personally have always leaned towards a console because of the dedicated buttons it has for cues and such. We currently have turned our keyboard into a trigger board, but of course are limited on the number of triggers we can use doing it this way. And on top of that(unless I just dont know how, which is possible) there is not an easy way to go from one page to the next which results in only having one set of triggers instead of being able to have layers. I am no professional, but would describe myself as an aggressive amateur, when I want to learn something I usually will. I have programmed full shows that are fully timed out to the second with moving fixtures and the LEDs we have. The other thing is that compulive2006 doesn't have the look of a console that I am used to seeing(in that way I prefer software similar to MagicQ).

hope that helps clear up my situation!

Thanks

 

[len]

Of the pc control, I can say that Lightjockey with LJ Manager (free) gives you a ton more layers, but you need to invest in a touch screen monitor, etc., plus the hardware, which is about $1,000. So you can trigger a bunch more cues simultaneously or in quick succession if you can get the page(s) laid out correctly. Plus, it can accept dmx in from a fader type board, if you need that type of control The other pc controls you mentioned might have something similar. I don't use large consoles very often in my business (mostly we use 12 channel boards like little Elation products) so I can't advise if a decent ETC board would be better or worse for your needs.

 

[TimMiller]

The express/obsession line is not moving light friendly at all. I remember when our church bought the obsession III when it first came out, when we did our annual Christmas pageant it was placed aside and we used a rented hog. My thoughts were should have just bought a hog. Personally I like a physical console, you should look around for a hog1000 or a road hog depending upon budget the hog1000 has been discontinued due to it being replaced by the road hog. But both consoles are very powerful an run anything you throw at them.

 

[AhClem]

Full disclosure.... up front.... I'm the manufacturer of the BlueLite X1 products.
(but you did ask for feedback )

The X1 (and the X1-Mini) both have a DMX In connector to allow you to use any external DMX console as a control device for the BlueLite's software. This offers you the high-end control capabilities of a software based system while still allowing the operator to have that tactile console feedback for that "I-want-my-buttons-and-knobs" attitude (I know I have that attitude... I want to be looking at the stage, not a laptop screen :shock: ). Plus you can expand out to 16 DMX Universes and not have to worry that your console may not be up to the task.

While you'll build your cues in BlueLite and assign the cues to the submasters, you can control those 24 submasters using your console's (e.g. Elation, ETC, ADJ, any DMX console) faders and bump buttons. You can save the cue/submaster assignments as a Preset, then reassign different cues to some or all of the submasters, save as a different Preset, etc., up to 24 preset pages. This offers you control of up to over 576 cues (24 at a time) just by recalling different preset pages.
The "Advanced Input" on the DMX input dialog also allows you to use your external console to control the BlueLite's four X/Y crossfader pairs, grandmaster, plus the ability to control our Event Lists transport control for running timecoded shows or to recall preprogrammed sequences from the Event List based on start/stop times that you can set using your console.

Our Event List allows you to build shows, assign fade times, recall them using SMPTE timecode or you can step through them, while our Live Panel let's you use your cues to build chases and sequences that can be recalled using the F-keys (and 'modifiers' like SHIFT/ALT/CTRL) to offer 48 'recalls' (and again, 24 'pages' that you can save for 1152 total chases available). We also offer the iPanel app for iOS and Android, offering you basic control of the Live Panel from your mobile device. The Live Panel also accepts MIDI input as a control input.

Since we also accept ArtNET input for control, (I'm sure others do as well) you could use any of the apps available for mobile devices that function as an ArtNET controller. For example, I've been using "RigTool" (either free or 0.99...I forget) on my iPhone as a simple test of ArtNET input. More powerful iPhone/iPAD/Android apps may offer you the ability to use your phone/tablet as an alternate/additional input device not just for our software, but for any other software package that accepts ArtNet Input for control.

As always... I'll be happy to discuss your needs/questions further in a PM/email/call (BlueLite or anything else I can help with)

 

[hobbsies]

We've been using an express 48/96 to contol 3 elation design spots, 10 rgb leds and about 120 conventional fixtures for the last 3 years. The express isn't the most moving light friendly board, but it isn't the worst. It does use profiles but it requires a usb floppy drive to save them to a disk to transfer them to a board. the profiles also eat up channels on the board.

We are finally upgrading to an element which I'm very excited about.

 

[gafftaper]

Don't buy an Express/Obsession they are just too out of date to be spending that kind of money for a console that won't handle your LED's movers.

Gam's "Plexus" software is co-created by CB member JChenault. DvsDave interviewed John at LDI last year about it and you can see the videos here. So you have representatives of both Bluelight and Plexus here on CB to ask questions from.

One cheap option would be an ETC Smartfade ML. I'm not a huge fan of the way the non-traditional way the Smartfade works, but it's well built, reliable, powerful, and would give you a console with real handles and buttons for $2500-ish. I've only used the standard Smartfade (not the ML which is designed for LED's/Movers) however I know some of the guys around here really like using the ML for small club/concert lighting. They say it's simple to use and program. Do some searching on the Smartfade ML for more.

Last time I checked, I think you could get a Strand Basic Palette 2 for around $4000. It only lets you control 100 channels (which sounds like it would be perfect for you), you can buy a key that will unlock more channels later if you need to (don't know what the max is). It's got two universes of DMX. I'm a big fan of the Strand/Horizon software and a big fan of this console for small Church/school/community theater applications. It's go the exact same software as Strand's $30,000 moving light consoles. I had a Strand Classic Palette at my previous gig and found it very easy to master, easy to train, and found them to be very quick to help out on the strand-dev.com support forums.

 

[tk2k]

Don't buy an Express/Obsession they are just too out of date to be spending that kind of money for a console that won't handle your LED's movers.


One cheap option would be an ETC Smartfade ML. I'm not a huge fan of the way the non-traditional way the Smartfade works, but it's well built, reliable, powerful, and would give you a console with real handles and buttons for $2500-ish. I've only used the standard Smartfade (not the ML which is designed for LED's/Movers) however I know some of the guys around here really like using the ML for small club/concert lighting. They say it's simple to use and program. Do some searching on the Smartfade ML for more.

I've got some strong opinions on most of what you posted

First off, the Express/Obsession is completely fine for a small moving light rig if you do not want effects. The issue with LED movers is they often have 36 channels of control (only 12 of which you actually need) but I've run 6 mac 700's off an Express with no trouble at all. The Obsession is a fantastic console, can you seriously get one for $3000?! I've seen them fetching 10k still. Maybe look into a LPC for the Express? I've seen 500 LPCs for very reasonable costs (sub 500) and you could use any Express as the faceplate and not run the risk of reduced channel count.


The Smartfade ML is a fantastic small console. The smartfade normal line is a pain to use, but the ML really comes into its own. It only lets you control 24 'intelligent fixtures' but it has an extremely powerful effects engine (for the cost). One thing I will say is you really MUST use it with a computer. The computer gives you cuestack, graphical patch, and all of those things you get with an Express. That being said, if you don't need effects, I would still go with an Express.

 

[derekleffew]

... Maybe look into a LPC for the Express? I've seen 500 LPCs for very reasonable costs (sub 500) and you could use any Express as the faceplate and not run the risk of reduced channel count. ...

By "LPC," do you mean "Lighting Playback Controller"?

Express Console - Electronic Theatre Controls

1. Express LPC maxes out at 250 channels.
2. One cannot use a physical console as a facepanel for an LPC.

Perhaps you're thinking of Emphasis?

-----

I, too, agree that neither Express nor Obsession is appropriate in this situation. Yes, they can be made to work, but neither is moving light friendly or LED aware.

 

[maccm8]

Thank You all for the comments and insight, I just had a couple questions that branch off of some of that insight.

I have now seen a number of people mention the obsession II is not friendly to moving fixtures. Could anyone be a little more specific with this? What specifically about the board makes it unfriendly to program moving fixtures on?

I ask because when I look at the specifications of the obsession II and look through some of the manual it seems as though it has accounted for the moving fixtures at least pretty decently. It has the 6 pages of 6 encoders dedicated to moving fixtures and more up-to-date library of those moving fixtures. I am just looking for clarity to what I do not yet understand. Like I said I am no professional, just an amateur wanting to learn and upgrade so thank you again for your responses.

 

[tk2k]

Ha yup had the name mixed up there, and LPC and remote processor (i.e. rackmount ion) flipped in my head.


Anyway, The O2 is, in my opinion, a very good console all around. When people say it's not as moving light friendly as modern consoles, they usually are talking about the effects engine. Generally, the different will be how 'graphical' vs how 'numbers based' the console is. For example, on an Ion, you can take a moving light and use a color diagram and select the color you want the light to produce, just as you would in MS Paint. However, on an O2, you're using dmx values and percentages. I.e. Cyan at 50%, Yellow at 10%, blue at 20%.

Again, its not 'bad' for moving lights, its just not modern. The O2 supports between 750 and 4608 channels (don't ask my why, the number seems completely random to me, channel count determined by what one you buy) so regardless you'll be fine for moving lights.

Honestly if you can get an O2, the faceplate and processor, for 3k, that's one hell of a deal. For comparison see ETC Obsession II 2 DPS, RFU Lighting Control System | eBay


I think the real question is this. How much upgrading of inventory do you expect? What you've talked about above, an O2 is overkill for what you need. I have a space I manage with 12 dimming 3 color LEDs, 16 ETC source4's and two Mac700's and all of that runs extremely happily off a smartfade ML (we got ours for $1800). If you don't expect to expand your inventory past 24 'intelligent' fixtures (i.e. not pars, s4's or anything like that) then the Smartfade ML gets my vote.

Edit: Another plus of the Smartfade ML is the youtube tutorials are excellent. The O2 was made about 10 years before youtube.

I have now seen a number of people mention the obsession II is not friendly to moving fixtures. Could anyone be a little more specific with this? What specifically about the board makes it unfriendly to program moving fixtures on?

I ask because when I look at the specifications of the obsession II and look through some of the manual it seems as though it has accounted for the moving fixtures at least pretty decently. It has the 6 pages of 6 encoders dedicated to moving fixtures and more up-to-date library of those moving fixtures. I am just looking for clarity to what I do not yet understand. Like I said I am no professional, just an amateur wanting to learn and upgrade so thank you again for your responses.

 

[jglodeklights]

Compulive2006.

I have been looking at changing at least the software for a while as I feel as if the Compulive2006 program does not have all the features that I would like to have in a lighting controller.

The Question: Should I...
1.) stick with what I have
2.) change to better functioning software(magicQ, BlueLite, etc...)
3.) purchase an ETC Express 24/48 for $2000
4.) purchase an ETC Express 48/96 for $3000
5.) purchase an ETC Obsession II Lighting Console for $3000

Thanks for the input!

Express: Out of the question; especially for those prices!
Stick with what you have: Eh! Haven't used it, but looks icky.
Obsession II: Make sure that price includes the processor and not just the control surface. However, as someone I know stated to me this winter, "The Obsession II is great. However, your Element can do more with more ease for an 1/8th the original price." I agree. The Element has a ML centric interface. The OBII is based on conventional lights, with ML's added in with just a bit more integration than the Express(ion) family.
Software: I like MagicQ, but the learning curve is steep, and the prices put it into Element territory when you consider the purchase of the wings and necessary equipment.

Considering your situation...I really like the Element or MagicQ (if you can get overcome the learning curve). The base version of the Element has 250 channels- this means 250 instruments with the same address. Considering you only have 21 lights now, anything you add is unlikely to reach that. While the Obsession is ML/LED "friendly", it is not ML/LED centric. It still views each ML/LED as a group of separate addresses that comprise a single fixture or group of fixtures addressed identically. The EOS Family that the Element is part of views each ML/LED as a single fixture or group of fixtures with multiple parameters, each with a different control channel. While OBII is better than Express(ion), it is still a system created before the modern LED. It also can be expensive to repair should it fail.

If you want a hard console; look at the Element. Slightly above those price ranges but worth the $800 more. If you really need to save money; look at Magic Q. A proper understanding of its playback architecture and discrete timing of many parameters and groups gives you a lot of power even if you are using a laptop and USB to DMX dongle and nothing else.

 

[maccm8]

tk2k and jglodeklights, that you. That really made it clear for me what the concerns were. I CAN get an Obsession II with processor and RFU for $3000, but I think I am going to pull the plug. After much research of my own and many of your input. I think my plan will end up being to sit this round out and try to raise an extra couple thousand dollars for the ETC Ion console. This seems like a good console and up to this point have not read many negatives attributes of it. Feel free to respond to that, but this helped me a lot. We likely will be expanding our auditorium to close to double the size at some point in the somewhat near future. I will have a goal to have that money put into a console that is completely up-to-date at that point. Thanks again.

 

[derekleffew]

Well now, once you're up to the price of an Ion, you're in roughly the same ballpark as Martin's M2PC or MA Lighting's MA onPC command wing (http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/...8-martin-m2go-m2pc-new-control-solutions.html , http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/28160-gma2-wing.html ).

Back to the "realistic" $2000-3000 budget, I believe various ChamSys MagicQ wings fit that. (Prices are notoriously difficult to ascertain with ChamSys hardware, perhaps owing to the fact that there's only one US dealer/distributor).

Luckily for you, all of today's consoles offer a free down-loadable OLE, allowing you to try them out before purchasing hardware. One does need, however, to make the commitment to learning the software, for a fiar evaluation. "Ease of use" may well be the most important factor with a volunteer workforce; but for others, power, flexibility, and outputs are key.

Programmer Rob Halliday, speaking of theatrical lighting consoles (which may not be applicable to a HOW setting):

"What's the difference between GrandMA, EOS and Strand Light Palette today?
Palette is a Prius with cool tech inside but it looks like crap and no one really likes to drive it.
The GrandMA looks like a high performance race car but you have to be a professional driver. If you make the slightest mistake you crash and burn.
EOS is a practical car that your parents buy. It doesn't look amazing but it gets the job done."

-----

...For comparison see ETC Obsession II 2 DPS, RFU Lighting Control System | eBay

Interesting that the listing shows ObsII processors with an ObsI facepanel. I'm not sure how that is supposed to work to comprise "a complete and usable system."

 

[DuckJordan]

They can actually work together. It's all about the firmware

 

[tk2k]

Ion is great but again will you Really need it? Even if you double your current in entire it could be handled on a smart fade ml

tk2k and jglodeklights, that you. That really made it clear for me what the concerns were. I CAN get an Obsession II with processor and RFU for $3000, but I think I am going to pull the plug. After much research of my own and many of your input. I think my plan will end up being to sit this round out and try to raise an extra couple thousand dollars for the ETC Ion console. This seems like a good console and up to this point have not read many negatives attributes of it. Feel free to respond to that, but this helped me a lot. We likely will be expanding our auditorium to close to double the size at some point in the somewhat near future. I will have a goal to have that money put into a console that is completely up-to-date at that point. Thanks again.

 

[maccm8]

The goal is to easily more than double what I currently have. The goal is to have at least half a dozen moving fixtures, backsplash LED's, accent LED's, and an extended front of stage light rack from what we have now. I have by no means thrown that option out the window, I will continue to monitor the market as well as watch how this expansion goes to see where I ultimately end up. So all that means is right now the Ion is a goal based on what I think we will be able to purchase in the future. If my circumstances change, then my goals and plans will definitely adapt to it.

 

[tk2k]

The goal is to easily more than double what I currently have. The goal is to have at least half a dozen moving fixtures, backsplash LED's, accent LED's, and an extended front of stage light rack from what we have now. I have by no means thrown that option out the window, I will continue to monitor the market as well as watch how this expansion goes to see where I ultimately end up. So all that means is right now the Ion is a goal based on what I think we will be able to purchase in the future. If my circumstances change, then my goals and plans will definitely adapt to it.

Sure thing, I'd also like to throw the Road Hog into consideration. I use one at the ART and we've been extremely satisfied with it. Wouldn't pick it over a Gio, but I'd say demo one and an ion and compare it for your uses

 

[maccm8]

got it. thanks