Lighting Upgrade, how to haggle?

[NatashaTylea]

Hello! I'm a sound engineer that has evolved into also doing lighting design and am now the TD of a somewhat out of date but major museum theater space. I've been planning an upgrade to intelligent lighting for some time now and I am fairly confident with what I've designed for the space, but I am stumped by a couple of things. First, has anyone found a good way to keep motorized electric lighting systems over a stage from swaying when a moving light is fixed to them? I have yet to test a mover on our electrics, but I imagine this would be an issue. Also, I've received a quote for this humongous purchase, but it's of course already reaching my budget limit before I've priced the PowerCon cable I will need to run these lights. Does anyone have any tips for how much I should expect a company to come down on their pricing? Our museum has had an account with this supplier for some time now and this is not an every day kind of purchase, so I imagine I can talk them into some kind of discount? I have had rather bad experiences in the past being a sound WOMAN and trying to convince some dude that I know what I'm taking about and that I don't need them to upsell me anything, so I suppose I have some fear I'll deal with this attitude again when buying lights. If anyone can give me some kind of spectrum for what is normal to expect a supplier to come down from a $95k price point to something closer to an $85k range, or to come down at all, I would be super grateful. Thanks in advance!

 

[Derickls]

My first recommendation to you would be to get multiple quotes. You can always try and negotiate, but it depends on the supplier as well as the products that you have specified.

 

[microstar]

If this is indeed for a "major museum", I cannot believe their purchasing department would not require complete specifications and a bid situation with a minimum of three vendors.
Or at the very least multiple price quotations, hopefully itemized as well.

 

[JChenault]

Natasha

The first thing I would ask ( because this is always my first question is 'Why intelligent lights. What are you hoping to gain from them" . That will greatly affect what makes sense for your space.

Re swaying of electrics. it depends on a number of factors. How much weight is on the electrics already? How heavy are the fixtures you are considering? How fast will they be moving? What is the length of the chain / cable from the pipe to the grid? Is it a simple pipe batten or some kind of truss?

The easiest way to find out is to get a demo / shootout in your space and see what it does when you use them as you expect.
You can usually stabilize the battens ( if they don't have to move up and down very often) with additional lines, etc to the sides of the stagehouse.

There was a product I saw a number of years ago that attempted to stabilize a mover on a pipe - but I have not seen it advertised for some time so I expect that is not an option.

In my experience, distributors typically have room to move on price. If you have been quoted list price for the gear you are interested, you need some additional bids. ( As suggested above - get bids from various companies).

 

[theatricalmatt]

A $10k shift on a $100k purchase is a 10% discount, which is a lot to ask for. You might find that sort of margin by downshifting lighting instruments features (from, say a Lustr 3 to a ColorSpot V) or from moving lights to static fixtures (from moving head wash fixtures, to fixed PARs with a zoom feature). You *might* find some value engineering by cutting spares, but that's going to have some severe implications three or four years down the line.

The stabilizer @JChenault mentions is likely the RSC Lightlock (https://www.rsclightlock.com/). I've heard of them and seen video demos, but don't have any hands-on experience.

You might also look at getting moving-mirror rather than moving-head intelligent fixtures, such as the Cyberlight LED. Since only the mirror is moving, there's less mass to cause unwanted motion. I second getting a demo in the space.

 

[Colin]

Pre-pandemic I'd regularly get close to 10% off list (before haggling even started) from vendors I had long relationships with, or who wanted to start one, but I suspect that's a thing of the past. I'd budget for the fixtures only, and the discount would pay for cable and accessories easily. If you trust your vendors, give them your budget number and ask them to propose a similar package that fits it. If you don't trust them then just get multiple quotes and pick the best. If you're just down to how to pay for PowerCon, you and your vendor ought to be able to find that amount of wiggle room I think. If they have rental stock, then they might sell you used cable.

You should get a demo for this big a purchase, and that'll tell you how concerned to be about the positions swinging around. Unless you anticipate needing the whole rig to do the same move at the same time at full speed, you could be okay. Or you might need to guy out on diagonals to stabilize for certain events. And yes, look at moving mirrors if they fit your needs.

 

[cbrandt]

Margins on sales and installation are rarely as large as you think they are. But, the biggest part here is that details matter! What might seem like a very small change in your BOM could yield a massive savings in costs. Are you working with an integrator, or just buying the gear straight out? An integrator or consultant can often find great ways to give you a better product for the same or better price. A lot of that largely depends on scope and other factors, but it is something to consider.

Negotiation is always a useful tool, and a good vendor won't be offended by asking. However, sales isn't rental or production.

 

[egilson1]

The stabilizer @JChenault mentions is likely the RSC Lightlock (https://www.rsclightlock.com/). I've heard of them and seen video demos, but don't have any hands-on experience.

The RSC was distributed in the US by total structures. Not likely you can still get them.

as mentioned the variables of the pipe batten will increase or decrease the noticeable movement. I would not focus on that until after your purchase, as the solution may be as simple as a few small guy wires to stabilize it if it is even noticeable.

 

[Van]

The RSC was distributed in the US by total structures. Not likely you can still get them.

as mentioned the variables of the pipe batten will increase or decrease the noticeable movement. I would not focus on that until after your purchase, as the solution may be as simple as a few small guy wires to stabilize it if it is even noticeable.

I was going to say, maybe a couple of baskets from the grid to under the electric. However, that possibily would really depend on if any of the battens directly US or DS of it were flying during the show.