There was a time when the legit theatre world looked down its collective nose at the upstart rock industry. Not so much anymore, perhaps mostly because many of those former rock & roll companies drive much of the industry today. Who have the big winners and losers been? Who made good choices and who made bad? Who dropped the farthest? Strand, Kliegl, Times Square, Colortran the big losers? ETC, Elation, Vari-Lite, MA, the big winners? Altman present then and present today but not exactly a winner? Who do you think are the top 5 biggest losers and top 5 biggest winners?
Manufacturers - Winners & Losers?
- Thread starterJSFox
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DuckJordan
Touring IATSE Member
None are really winners or loosers most of my inventory is a mix and always will be. There are times where a lekolight will do what I want better than a S4 same with Colortran and altman if I had more movers it would also be a mix. They are just different tools. While I agree some definately grew faster or bigger than others. It was based more on marketting and price vs support.
re: Manufacturers - Winners & Losers?
Neither. The biggest buyer in the industry by far is public and private education. The next biggest buyer after that is the house of worship market. Falling behind these two major industrys is the touring vendors/road houses/legit theatre.
All you have to do is walk around a trade show today and realize all of these guys are doing extremely well in the education world and mega church world. It is in these situations that bottom dollar is king. Sometimes Strand comes out on top, some times ETC comes out on top.
There is also the fact that VL (who you think is a winner) and Strand (who you think is a loser) are both the same company. The same company also owns the most widely used LED company in the business (Color Kenetics). There is a reason VL was able to build the VLX.
None of these companies you listed are winners or losers. The market is going to be changing drastically in the coming years. If Phillips manages their properties correctly they will be a serious force in the industry. Even HES has some serious cards left on the table with its relationship with Barco. You also have PRG who is starting to make their own gear.
The real question is ETC going to continue on by itself. They started the rigging wing of the company to be more competitive/turnkey in the education market. Wenger just bought JR Clancy to also be more competitive in the same market. If Wenger picks up a lighting company there will be totally turnkey.
We are starting to see a concentration of power into about 5 companies, all of which are going to be large forces in the industry as a whole. No one has even come close to losing yet.
There is space for everyone.
Neither. The biggest buyer in the industry by far is public and private education. The next biggest buyer after that is the house of worship market. Falling behind these two major industrys is the touring vendors/road houses/legit theatre.
All you have to do is walk around a trade show today and realize all of these guys are doing extremely well in the education world and mega church world. It is in these situations that bottom dollar is king. Sometimes Strand comes out on top, some times ETC comes out on top.
There is also the fact that VL (who you think is a winner) and Strand (who you think is a loser) are both the same company. The same company also owns the most widely used LED company in the business (Color Kenetics). There is a reason VL was able to build the VLX.
None of these companies you listed are winners or losers. The market is going to be changing drastically in the coming years. If Phillips manages their properties correctly they will be a serious force in the industry. Even HES has some serious cards left on the table with its relationship with Barco. You also have PRG who is starting to make their own gear.
The real question is ETC going to continue on by itself. They started the rigging wing of the company to be more competitive/turnkey in the education market. Wenger just bought JR Clancy to also be more competitive in the same market. If Wenger picks up a lighting company there will be totally turnkey.
We are starting to see a concentration of power into about 5 companies, all of which are going to be large forces in the industry as a whole. No one has even come close to losing yet.
There is space for everyone.
re: Manufacturers - Winners & Losers?
ETC isn't particularly standing on their own as much as they just rebrand what they buy into their own. ETC did not invent the Selador X7 LED line. That is actually how the Selador product line got it's name, it was invented by a company named Selador which ETC bought out. etc enters led market purchase selador. They have done that with at least one other but I can't remember off the top of my head which.
There are certainly companies that are on their way up, on the plateau, and on their way down. This is all mostly due to marketing and the industry they target. The names we all know, and head to first, are the names that have done the best at keeping themselves in the media and in front of our eyes in a positive way. Now those who are no longer even around, like Colortran, I'd go ahead and put them in the looser pile. We have a lot of Colortran Berkey fixtures and all Colortran power distribution in the University here. Power distro is fine, fixtures aren't the best, but we've all worked with worse.
ETC isn't particularly standing on their own as much as they just rebrand what they buy into their own. ETC did not invent the Selador X7 LED line. That is actually how the Selador product line got it's name, it was invented by a company named Selador which ETC bought out. etc enters led market purchase selador. They have done that with at least one other but I can't remember off the top of my head which.
There are certainly companies that are on their way up, on the plateau, and on their way down. This is all mostly due to marketing and the industry they target. The names we all know, and head to first, are the names that have done the best at keeping themselves in the media and in front of our eyes in a positive way. Now those who are no longer even around, like Colortran, I'd go ahead and put them in the looser pile. We have a lot of Colortran Berkey fixtures and all Colortran power distribution in the University here. Power distro is fine, fixtures aren't the best, but we've all worked with worse.
re: Manufacturers - Winners & Losers?
Colortran is still around in spirit, it just got bought by Leviton... who also bought NSI. So if you buy a Leviton console, at its core it is Colortran. The Status which Leviton sold was a Colortran console. Not saying their gear is any good, but they are in schools all over the country because they are the lowest bidder most of the time.
Also, ETC bought LMI in the late 80's, taking their dimmers (L86).
So, you might think a company is gone when it fact they just got gobbled up by a larger company.
Colortran is still around in spirit, it just got bought by Leviton... who also bought NSI. So if you buy a Leviton console, at its core it is Colortran. The Status which Leviton sold was a Colortran console. Not saying their gear is any good, but they are in schools all over the country because they are the lowest bidder most of the time.
Also, ETC bought LMI in the late 80's, taking their dimmers (L86).
So, you might think a company is gone when it fact they just got gobbled up by a larger company.
re: Manufacturers - Winners & Losers?
That's usually how corporate buyouts work though, it's not just ETC. Another of Kyle's examples is Wenger bought Clancy. Clancy as a name will stick around but they're owned by Wenger now and technically it's a wenger product. You see it in lighting fixtures, lamp manufacturers, rebranding is all over, the only reason some names stick around is because they had a customer following that the new ownership would like to keep generally speaking. Why buy selador and change the name completely when you can keep the people who like selador to begin with and then add your own company name to it as well.
That's usually how corporate buyouts work though, it's not just ETC. Another of Kyle's examples is Wenger bought Clancy. Clancy as a name will stick around but they're owned by Wenger now and technically it's a wenger product. You see it in lighting fixtures, lamp manufacturers, rebranding is all over, the only reason some names stick around is because they had a customer following that the new ownership would like to keep generally speaking. Why buy selador and change the name completely when you can keep the people who like selador to begin with and then add your own company name to it as well.
re: Manufacturers - Winners & Losers?
Sometimes the brand name is the only thing worth buying. Compare the generations of Lekolight (and the name variations: Leko, LEKO, Leko-Lite) all made by different parent companies. If you said Strand, you'd be wrong for a good portion of them.
Other times it's the technology; the buyout of FPS by HES, for example.
Some companies thrive, others fail. Some are bought by a parent company who has no interest in what they do, and allows them to continue autonomously. Other times the parent company just wants to increase debt and suck as much cash out as possible (sound familiar?).
See Memory Lighting Control Systems, History - ControlBooth , where we've tried to keep track of the various buyouts, mergers, and closings of companies; in addition to documenting their consoles.
The most important word in "show business" is the latter.
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This quote seems pertinent:
Consider also:
Not that ETC needs defending, but I'll disagree with this. In (almost; I can think of only one exception) every case when ETC has purchased another company, they've made the products better; they did not just slap their own name on it. Novella Smith and Rob Gerlach, original co-founders of Selador, have talked about how the product would not be where it is today without the involvement of ETC.
Sometimes the brand name is the only thing worth buying. Compare the generations of Lekolight (and the name variations: Leko, LEKO, Leko-Lite) all made by different parent companies. If you said Strand, you'd be wrong for a good portion of them.
Other times it's the technology; the buyout of FPS by HES, for example.
Some companies thrive, others fail. Some are bought by a parent company who has no interest in what they do, and allows them to continue autonomously. Other times the parent company just wants to increase debt and suck as much cash out as possible (sound familiar?).
See Memory Lighting Control Systems, History - ControlBooth , where we've tried to keep track of the various buyouts, mergers, and closings of companies; in addition to documenting their consoles.
The most important word in "show business" is the latter.
-----
This quote seems pertinent:
Consider also:
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re: Manufacturers - Winners & Losers?
Wenger may have bought up Clancy but it is most certainly NOT just some in-name-only company. Unlike other mergers and buyouts Clancy employees haven't faced wholesale layoffs, closure of their factory, and all that fun, they simply now have a new parent company with new shareholders to report to. Companies are bought up for a whole host of reasons, not just for their nameplates alone.
In the case of ETC, it is important to note that when they buy up another company, they often pay for the intellectual property and the people that come with it. ETC didn't just buy the Selador brand, they brought Novella Smith and Rob Gerlach on board as part of the ETC family.
Some days its the cold hard metal borg, and other days its the shiny happy friendly borg. Just depends on whos buying who, and for what reason.
Wenger may have bought up Clancy but it is most certainly NOT just some in-name-only company. Unlike other mergers and buyouts Clancy employees haven't faced wholesale layoffs, closure of their factory, and all that fun, they simply now have a new parent company with new shareholders to report to. Companies are bought up for a whole host of reasons, not just for their nameplates alone.
In the case of ETC, it is important to note that when they buy up another company, they often pay for the intellectual property and the people that come with it. ETC didn't just buy the Selador brand, they brought Novella Smith and Rob Gerlach on board as part of the ETC family.
Some days its the cold hard metal borg, and other days its the shiny happy friendly borg. Just depends on whos buying who, and for what reason.
re: Manufacturers - Winners & Losers?
....unless you have tried to get Clancy parts in the last 6 months....
....unless you have tried to get Clancy parts in the last 6 months....
re: Manufacturers - Winners & Losers?
Yup had a nagging feeling all wasn't roses and sunshine in Clancy land.
Yup had a nagging feeling all wasn't roses and sunshine in Clancy land.
re: Manufacturers - Winners & Losers?
Ha, luckily I havent. I'm working with a similar situation in that the school I work for purchased a children's theatre last year and "left it intact" according to them, the board is still there and the name is there and at a quick glance it hasn't changed. But from the inside we own it, so it's 3 or 4 of us really controlling the whole thing and setting how it's going to work. 2 people from the original company ( one of them is now a teacher at the school) Me running tech and our theatre, and then the school's business office. It's never as simple as they imply.
Ha, luckily I havent. I'm working with a similar situation in that the school I work for purchased a children's theatre last year and "left it intact" according to them, the board is still there and the name is there and at a quick glance it hasn't changed. But from the inside we own it, so it's 3 or 4 of us really controlling the whole thing and setting how it's going to work. 2 people from the original company ( one of them is now a teacher at the school) Me running tech and our theatre, and then the school's business office. It's never as simple as they imply.
re: Manufacturers - Winners & Losers?
There is nothing in this discussion that is really unique to lighting or the specific manufacturers, the same thing is happening in many areas of business. I was once offered a job at Electro-Voice and during the interview they indicated that they saw the audio industry becoming a handful of big, multi-brand companies along with a number of smaller boutique or niche companies. That was almost 30 years ago and foreshadowed Harman, LOUD Technologies, The MUSIC Group, TC Group, etc. that now exist. Unless you can truly be in a 'price is no object' market then the sharing of business and management resources, access to investment capital, shared R&D costs and resources, etc. are going to be factors that can lead to changes and mergers.
And as much as people may want "there will be no changes" to be true when a company is acquired or divested, it can't really be so or there would be no reason for the acquisition or divestiture. That does not mean it will be a negative change, just that some change will likely be involved. The usually dilemma is whether an acquisition or divestiture is intended to benefit both parties or intended primarily to benefit one party. When it is one brand name purchasing another rather than a holding or parent company adding to their brands, it can be more difficult for it to be mutually beneficial unless the companies truly merge as equals.
There is nothing in this discussion that is really unique to lighting or the specific manufacturers, the same thing is happening in many areas of business. I was once offered a job at Electro-Voice and during the interview they indicated that they saw the audio industry becoming a handful of big, multi-brand companies along with a number of smaller boutique or niche companies. That was almost 30 years ago and foreshadowed Harman, LOUD Technologies, The MUSIC Group, TC Group, etc. that now exist. Unless you can truly be in a 'price is no object' market then the sharing of business and management resources, access to investment capital, shared R&D costs and resources, etc. are going to be factors that can lead to changes and mergers.
And as much as people may want "there will be no changes" to be true when a company is acquired or divested, it can't really be so or there would be no reason for the acquisition or divestiture. That does not mean it will be a negative change, just that some change will likely be involved. The usually dilemma is whether an acquisition or divestiture is intended to benefit both parties or intended primarily to benefit one party. When it is one brand name purchasing another rather than a holding or parent company adding to their brands, it can be more difficult for it to be mutually beneficial unless the companies truly merge as equals.
Brad, great response. One point. An acquisition is ALWAYS for the benefit of the buyer, or at least intended for the buyer's benefit. No? The bought will often benefit, but this is a by-product as a what's good for the goose is good for the gander. The exception might be a reverse buy-out, but that's really just a legal technicality.
Legitimate though? In most of these cases the company is undervalued in the market, usually because they missed the boat - they didn't continue innovating and producing products that people wanted for a price people were willing to pay. At least relative to the competition. What then is the value left? Employees? The same ones who didn't innovate? Intellectual property? Likely not. Some minimal remaining name value that will allow milking the cow until there's nothing left? Other?
That's not how I meant it. However, even with added innovation they are still rebranding what someone else conceptualized. My point is, they aren't standing all on their own as others have implied, they just don't keep changing their company name every time they buy another company. I'm an avid ETC fan, as are most, so I'm in no way trying to bash on them.
Esoteric
Well-Known Member
PRG makes some nice gear too and with their share of the rental market they can send their stuff out there and get it seen.
We do probably 65% of our work in the house of worship market now. The market share is just shooting through the roof. Three years ago they were probably 20% of our business with theater making up 35%, music making up 40%, and other making up 5%.
As far as parent companies making changes, ever since Bheringer was acquired, their gear has gone up substantially in quality (not on the level with A&H or Digi or even Yamaha, but good). Same thing with Phillips and Strand (to me).
We do probably 65% of our work in the house of worship market now. The market share is just shooting through the roof. Three years ago they were probably 20% of our business with theater making up 35%, music making up 40%, and other making up 5%.
As far as parent companies making changes, ever since Bheringer was acquired, their gear has gone up substantially in quality (not on the level with A&H or Digi or even Yamaha, but good). Same thing with Phillips and Strand (to me).
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museav;256192 That was almost 30 years ago and foreshadowed Harman said:
Still annoyed with Harman. When they bought BSS they killed off the analog division... and stopped producing some of the best compressors out on the market at the same time. They won't even take a phone call to service the ones we have.
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