new console decision

[innovation88]

Hi all,
I'm really battling with whether or not I need a new console. Right now, I'm using a Smartfade ML. Love the ease of use. However, I keep getting closer to the limit on the Stack, the memory pages are a little too small, and the way it handles cues is somewhat cumbersome.

I've looked at the ETC Element, Jands Vista (PC version), ETC Congo Kid, and various other boards. There seems to be a big gap between the entry level boards and the big guys. This is for a production environment with a small number of conventionals, a decent number of LED fixtures, 10 moving heads, and 4 moving mirrors. I've had to patch many of the LED fixtures together to be able to fit them on the SF ML.

Do I need a new board? If so, suggestions?
Should I save money and stick with what I know?

Thanks

 

[blueeyesdesigns]

It certainly sounds like you've outgrown the console you have so it's not unreasonable to be in the market for something new.

What kind of application/venue? What you need it to do, what you need ready and quick access to, and what sort of programming style you want/need can all have a big influence on what kind of console is right for you. Are you writing a lot of cues then calling them back in order? Running big concerts on the fly? Both?

If you can afford it, I highly recommend an ETC Ion, especially if you can afford a touch-screen or two to go with it. For busking, if you create a good set of presets and pallettes, you can do a lot on the fly, and you get a lot of strong payback functions for pre-set cueing.

If you want to go to something PC based, there are a couple good options out there, but you'll probably want to look into a fader wing and/or x-keys setup to make programming easier.

 

[innovation88]

It certainly sounds like you've outgrown the console you have so it's not unreasonable to be in the market for something new.

What kind of application/venue? What you need it to do, what you need ready and quick access to, and what sort of programming style you want/need can all have a big influence on what kind of console is right for you. Are you writing a lot of cues then calling them back in order? Running big concerts on the fly? Both?

If you can afford it, I highly recommend an ETC Ion, especially if you can afford a touch-screen or two to go with it. For busking, if you create a good set of presets and pallettes, you can do a lot on the fly, and you get a lot of strong payback functions for pre-set cueing.

If you want to go to something PC based, there are a couple good options out there, but you'll probably want to look into a fader wing and/or x-keys setup to make programming easier.

It's a church; however, productions are the heavy lifting. Need quick access to movers and other intelligent devices. Yes, writing cues and calling them back in order is what it would be mainly used for.

I realize the Ion is ideal; however, it definitely is out of our price range ($5k absolute max). Hence the difficulty.

 

[gafftaper]

Heavy use of movers requires a heavy duty console, you just can't do everything you want with an entry level console.

Take a look at the Pathway Cognito. It packs a lot of punch in a $3.5k-$5.5k console. It's a great solution for many people who can't afford an Ion. It might be enough for you.

If you want to try a PC solution, take a look at Gam Plexus. CB member @JChenault is one of the creators of Plexus and can answer any questions you may have, just drop him a message.

If those don't work, notify the powers that be that you are living on borrowed time with your SmartFade ML and they need to find you $10k over the next couple of years to buy a serious console or you are going to have to cut back on the moving lights. The cheap little console they provided just can't handle everything you are now doing.

Also don't forget to look for a used gear on Solaris Network or Gear Source, a used Grand MA or Hog could be a sweet solution.

 

[JohnD]

Another PC plus Wing solution in your price range would be the Avolites Titan Mobile.
http://www.avolites.com/products/control/titan-mobile

 

[soundlight]

If the ETC style of doing things is what you're after, look at the ETC Element 40/250 with a touchscreen. Should be right at the $5K mark.

I also know of a lot of churches that have embraced the Martin platform because of how easy it is to learn and how powerful it is for the price. You can get an M2PC, which is the Martin PC wing, for well under $5K and use some of the remainder on a nice touchscreen all-in-one to hook it up to. Very powerful system that is very easy to learn.

 

[techieman33]

If the ETC style of doing things is what you're after, look at the ETC Element 40/250 with a touchscreen. Should be right at the $5K mark.

I also know of a lot of churches that have embraced the Martin platform because of how easy it is to learn and how powerful it is for the price. You can get an M2PC, which is the Martin PC wing, for well under $5K and use some of the remainder on a nice touchscreen all-in-one to hook it up to. Very powerful system that is very easy to learn.

I've never used one, but everything I've heard is that element isn't moving light friendly. If you need a 2nd universe of DMX look closely at the PC based solutions before you buy, the first universe is usually cheap or free, the 2nd universe can be very expensive.

 

[doctrjohn]

In PC-wing land, the Chamsys Maxi Wing will fit within your budget. It has four direct DMX outputs and up to 64 universes of DMX control (only limited by the computer you plug it in to). Use an all-in-one touchscreen PC, or add a touchscreen to an existing PC, and you have a very fast and flexible control solution.

If you are interested in an ION specifically, and are not opposed to the idea of used or factory refurbished equipment, shoot me a private message; I may be able to help...

Best,
John

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

If you don't want to make excuses or have to ask for a new console sooner than comfortable and the purchase is forgotten, lobby for an Ion.

 

[cbrandt]

If the ETC style of doing things is what you're after, look at the ETC Element 40/250 with a touchscreen. Should be right at the $5K mark.

I also know of a lot of churches that have embraced the Martin platform because of how easy it is to learn and how powerful it is for the price. You can get an M2PC, which is the Martin PC wing, for well under $5K and use some of the remainder on a nice touchscreen all-in-one to hook it up to. Very powerful system that is very easy to learn.

The element is just fine for movers as long as you're looking for one cue stack, and only playing back from that stack. It gets really frustrating if you're trying to program it as you would a larger moving light desk. I've put them to great use in small spaces doing traditional theater, but I wouldn't want to do a concert on one.

The M2PC is a great solution, but if you can squeak a little more the M2GO is a full console. Of course, I'm over selling you there, since you said your absolution budget is 5k, and the M2GO lists at a round 8k, and that's without a necessary touchscreen.

 

[innovation88]

If you don't want to make excuses or have to ask for a new console sooner than comfortable and the purchase is forgotten, lobby for an Ion.

Very good point! Thank you

 

[innovation88]

The element is just fine for movers as long as you're looking for one cue stack, and only playing back from that stack. It gets really frustrating if you're trying to program it as you would a larger moving light desk. I've put them to great use in small spaces doing traditional theater, but I wouldn't want to do a concert on one.

The M2PC is a great solution, but if you can squeak a little more the M2GO is a full console. Of course, I'm over selling you there, since you said your absolution budget is 5k, and the M2GO lists at a round 8k, and that's without a necessary touchscreen.

The element in theory would address our needs just fine. However, we rely heavily on intelligent devices. Our situation is a little weird. Basically, we've been blessed with lots of great equipment - for instance, a large church sent us 8 of their old Studio Color 575s - but the size/funds of the organization is now having to deal with running all this equipment. Also, all the new equipment purchased is either LED, heads, or mirrors...leaving us with a small venue with a large count of intelligent devices (for us) and a small conventional count...and no budget for the 7-10k console to run these devices to our expectation in productions. Yes.

I did check out the M2GO and M2PC. I think if I were to go that direction, that I might as well get an Ion for the money.

The PC solution seems to good to be true. Maybe it's just me.

Thank you for your input!

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

The other reason for reaching for an Ion or something in that class is that while many other solutions may solve your immediate problems and facilitate what you are doing now, I think reaching further will allow growth and improvement.

I have a project - an addition of an auditorium and stage to a high school which has not had this for a long time - like maybe 1970s when their current high school was built - so when we talk about having even dressing rooms, the superintendent says they haven't needed them when doing shows in the gym. So now they are building a new field house and an auditorium and stage and planning on using the locker rooms as dressing rooms, just not having come to grips with the idea that if both are available simultaneously, both will likely be utilized simultaneously. At least there is land adjacent to the stage to build.

You're making a capital investment and good stewardship is planning on where you'll be in 5 years, not just overcoming the current shortcomings.

 

[innovation88]

The other reason for reaching for an Ion or something in that class is that while many other solutions may solve your immediate problems and facilitate what you are doing now, I think reaching further will allow growth and improvement.

I have a project - an addition of an auditorium and stage to a high school which has not had this for a long time - like maybe 1970s when their current high school was built - so when we talk about having even dressing rooms, the superintendent says they haven't needed them when doing shows in the gym. So now they are building a new field house and an auditorium and stage and planning on using the locker rooms as dressing rooms, just not having come to grips with the idea that if both are available simultaneously, both will likely be utilized simultaneously. At least there is land adjacent to the stage to build.

You're making a capital investment and good stewardship is planning on where you'll be in 5 years, not just overcoming the current shortcomings.

Can't thank you enough for that word of wisdom. Right now, I'm working on fitting it in

 

[innovation88]

Just posted a thread asking for input on a couple fixtures. Would love to get everyone's input on that. Thanks!

 

[JChenault]

Gaff - thanks for the plug.

To answer some questions about our system ( Plexus ).
RE price - first universe $800. Every additional universe $400. Additionally you will have to purchase a hardware device to generate DMX. This means that typically ( assuming you have a computer laying around ) you can get out for around $1000. Use the rest of your money for something else you need.

Plexus is certainly powerful enough to handle many moving lights and intelligent fixtures. One current rig has three revolutions, two apollo rt Arm/scroller/iris units, 6 Altman spectra cycs, 14 LED par cans, and 180 conventional fixtures. When the system was running the moving lights at the Oregon Shakespeare Festival, it handled about 20 to 30 movers.

It is very easy for new users to figure out. My coding partner on Plexus has been a master electrician and in the business for 35 years. When he ( or I ) go to a trade show, and stand in front of any of the modern, complex consoles ( Grand MA, ION, EOS, etc ) we can't intuitively figure out how to turn on a light. We're easier than that.

It has some concepts ( like a way of thinking of groups) that is very useful to designers that the console manufacturers have not discovered simply because they are wedded to lots of buttons and encoders instead of a GUI.

It is great for fixed cue shows. IE where you can pre-program your looks . It is not so great for busking on the fly. ( we are working on this - but not there yet).

Down load it from the Rosco website - take a look. If you have questions feel free to post or give me a PM

John

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

BTW, I put a smartfade ml in a church - feels like more conventionals and fewer LEDs and movers than you but also 5 or 6 years ago at least - and the operator did not care for it until he downloaded the software (for his Macbook) and then he set the console under the desk and programmed and ran from his Mac. I have no idea if this would help you at all - since it feels like a universe issue you're facing - but at least you might try it, and make sure you have latest software. And is channel count at 96 or if at 48, can it be upgraded?

 

[innovation88]

BTW, I put a smartfade ml in a church - feels like more conventionals and fewer LEDs and movers than you but also 5 or 6 years ago at least - and the operator did not care for it until he downloaded the software (for his Macbook) and then he set the console under the desk and programmed and ran from his Mac. I have no idea if this would help you at all - since it feels like a universe issue you're facing - but at least you might try it, and make sure you have latest software. And is channel count at 96 or if at 48, can it be upgraded?

The two universes are perfect. I'm running into a lack of memories and pushing the boundaries of the 199 step stack. The intensity channel count is 48 and the board allows 24 intelligent devices (up to 32 channels each I believe) on top of the 48 intensity channels. The channel count can be upgraded by linking two smart fades together via MIDI.

I might try the SmartSoft software. Haven't really tapped into much.

 

[SteveB]

" a decent number of LED fixtures, 10 moving heads, and 4 moving mirrors"

I would not be doing this on an Element. Ion with touch screens - yes.

Lot's of other good choices out there as well, Avo, ChamSys, possibly some of the less expensive Hog or MA desks.

But not an Element.

 

[RickR]

The ea$y solution to the 199 stack limit is to break your show into multiple files, change at whatever passes for intermission. Check your equipment for DMX loss settings so nothing happens if the board output blinks.

OTOH: Add up the value of your rig and compare it to how much a "pro" level board will cost. It sounds like going beyond the $5 is really a drop in the bucket. I also agree that the Ion is much better choice for you than the Element. Try something like this line "If we bought the right gear the first time we wouldn't be spending even more now."