New Theatre Facility Ideas

[Mim]

A few questions regarding technical theatre and your specific venue/s.
What do you love about your theatre, and why?
What do you dislike about your theatre, and why?
If you had built it, what would you keep and what would you have changed?
If you could have any type of performance space which would you choose: proscenium, black box, thrust, etc.?
What is most challenging about your current space?

Any other input would be certainly appreciated as I will be soon be handed an advisory position on a new project that is 5 years out, and want to be certain I am covering as many scenarios and issues I possibly can.

 

[kiwitechgirl]

A few questions regarding technical theatre and your specific venue/s.
What do you love about your theatre, and why?

The fact that it's unique - there isn't another space like it anywhere in the world (it's a converted space). The fact that if you're in the front row, you're closer to the action than any other theatre I've ever been in - the audience relationship with the stage is fantastic. The fact that our "tunnel" which goes from one side of the stage to the other (under the auditorium) is where every cast puts something up on the wall and signs it so their show will be remembered.

What do you dislike about your theatre, and why?

The fact that I have to take disabled patrons and those who don't deal with stairs well, in through backstage and across the stage. The fact that we can't fly anything (fixed grid) and have almost zero wingspace.

If you had built it, what would you keep and what would you have changed?

I'd keep the shape (we're sort of 3/4 thrust) and the audience relationship with the stage. I'd give us enough height to fly set pieces, and some more wingspace. I'd also like proper disabled access and wheelchair seats that I don't have to lift out and put on a trolley to create space for the wheelchairs! Oh, and I'd like to be able to see the stage from prompt corner without a monitor....I'd also keep the "tunnel" as it's a part of what and who we are.

If you could have any type of performance space which would you choose: proscenium, black box, thrust, etc.?

Proscenium, any day - I love working in proscenium houses.

What is most challenging about your current space?

Keeping the designs new and interesting while working within the extremely limiting parameters of the space, while creating workable, functional sets which don't require crew.

 

[seanandkate]

A few questions regarding technical theatre and your specific venue/s.
What do you love about your theatre, and why?

It's a blackbox. I love the fact that I can configure the seating to anything. It's been proscenium, thrust, arena, bizarre -- you name it. Like kiwitechgirl the audience is close enough to touch actors, and that creates a special kind of environment that you can't replicate in a larger space (the house seats about 150)

What do you dislike about your theatre, and why?

Low grid. No flying. No thought of booth placement in initial design.

If you had built it, what would you keep and what would you have changed?

Dedicated booth space. Raise the grid by about 10 feet. Hostile takeover of the rooms to either side of the theatre to increase wing space. Increased electrical capacity so the retrofit 15 years ago wasn't like building Hadrian's wall.

If you could have any type of performance space which would you choose: proscenium, black box, thrust, etc.?

I love all of those formats, but for different reasons. It depends on a lot of variables. My black box works for me because I want to have the flexibility to have students (and higher ups) see different configurations, and the pluses and minuses inherent to each. My ideal house size is about 120 because that's how many I can count on in any given night--educational theatre being what it is. A larger space would look barren.

What is most challenging about your current space?

Grid height and lack of proper wing space. And lack of overall storage space now that I come to think of it.

 

[Mim]

Sean - how high is your grid? just curious

 

[Mim]

My current theatre is a proscenium, we're looking to add a 'flexible' space to our projected arts campus. I have ideas, some good some bad I'm sure, but there are probably things I'm not thinking about so I really appreciate all input!

 

[jonliles]

I am without a permanent home at the moment so I will refrain from the questions. But (I think I undersstand what you are tryting to accomplish. Check out GA Tech's Ferst Arts Center (Georgia Institute of Technology :: Ferst Center for the Arts). They basically have a black box with open configuration seating. The Box more than 2 stories high and easily accommodates 2 story sets. The student run "DramaTech" organization does all of their performances there. You may want to contact them to see what they like and do not like. Sorry, I do not personally know any of the students, but you can contact them through their website. If you are ever in Atlanta, I am sure they would give you a tour.

 

[bdkdesigns]

You know, it was once explained to me that there are two types of theatre spaces and I've found it to be true in most smaller spaces until you get up to the larger regional theatres:

1) Designed or consulted by a theatre designer/technician. This space is a dream to work in. Everything from a technical standpoint has been thought of and can support the workload going on. As an example, my last space was huge. Our stage had plenty of wingspace for scenery storage. In fact, our stage right wing was larger than the stage itself. It wasn't uncommon for us to store another shows set just offstage: Ie: The Montana Rep National Tour set that gets built in the summer and tours in the spring. The scene shop itself is equal in size to the stage...and that was the alternate size when funding the building, it was originally supposed to be twice as big. Currently right now in their scene shop, they are building the set for their first production of the season, Hair, and also building this years USA exhibit for the PQ. So, from a technical side, it is amazing. Now, the audience perspective is another story. The exterior of the building is interesting but the novelty really pretty much stops there. The lobby is nothing special at all. Some steps lead up to the theatre entrance with an awkwardly placed elevator to allow for handicapped seating on the side. Once inside the space, you are treating to a horrific brown painted popcorn ceiling and walls with nothing special going on at all.

2) Designed or consulted by a theatre director/producer. This type of space is horrific to work in from a technical standpoint. Often times your shops are extremely small (assuming that they even exist in the first place) and you get almost zero wing space. Now, from the audiences perspective, everything is top of the line. These type of spaces often have breathtaking lobby areas and a house with nice detailed walls, perhaps fancy hanging house lights/chandelier. Everything is just visually pleasing. This type of theatre also existed in Missoula, MT. The Missoula Childrens Theatre fits this to the T. Their old flying system was some sort of horrific blend of a hemp system that gave you no leverage because the control area didn't allow you to see the stage and you changed directions through some pullies so that you pulled the ropes in towards you in a horizontal fashion rather than vertically. It wasn't until many years later that they were able to ditch that system and invest in Vortek. Their wingspace and shops are another story though. Those cannot be expanded without a TON of money. From an audience perspective though, it was all top of the line.

And, in case you are interested, they set up a facebook page tracking the build of the PQ exhibit located here

 

[JChenault]

To take a slightly different approach - here are some of the dumbest things I have seen architects / contractors do.

• Put in a low door between the (tall ) scene ship and the (tall) stage.
• Fill up the overhead space with air ducts. Fill up the grid with air ducts.
• Not pay attention to the noise of your HVAC system ( a common problem )
• Not being clear on what kind of theatre shape. IE it's not a thrust, it's not a proscenium, it's a poke.
• Not thinking clearly about how to make the audience be a coherent group. ( There is a theatre in town that moved from a delightful thrust stage to a new theatre. The audience in that space is so cut up with architectural froo-froo that it is not a single group any more, but a collection of smaller groups. Makes the experience less powerful)
• Not thinking about how things / actors move. IE you need to think about how to get the sofa from the prop shop to the stage. How do your actors get from backstage to make an entrance through the audience, etc.
• Blackout vestibule coming into the seating space.
• No provision for audience desk(s) in the house.
• Allowing emergency exits through the theatre backstage spaces ( Sometimes this is unavoidable, but needs to be controlled).
• A floor you can not screw into.
• A scene shop with a 'Wooden end grain floor' ( at one point prevalent in educational institutions ) They put in 4x4 on end to make a wood floor so you get 3.5 x 3.5 squares of wood. If it gets wet it gets uneven.
• Control booths that are hermetically sealed from the stage space. Windows should open.
• Not considering railings in sight lines of your seating.
• No crossover behind the cyc ( Assuming a proscenium or thrust style of space here )
• No wing space.
• FOH lighting positions you have to crawl to get to, or that you cannot focus without lying on your stomach or crawling out on the plaster
• Large acoustical clouds that are not coordinated with the lighting positions.
• Too much technology where a simple solution would work better. ( for example, a multi scene preset house lighting system that is so hard to use that no one knows how to use it)
• Inconsistent circuit numbering and doubling.
• No downlight positions over the apron.
• Electric battens that do not have full travel

As to type of theatre ( black box, thrust, etc) - it depends on what kinds of things you will be doing and what is the purpose of the space.

Get a theatre consultant involved if this is at all a major renovation - but don't believe that that consultant necessarily knows more than you do about all things. Many consultants are used to doing high school stages and they stamp out the same crappy design over and over again. If you see something you don't like or think is wrong, or looks like overkill - say so early and loudly.

But the most important thing to do!
Work very hard to get yourself into a position where your advice will be listened to. If there is a building committee join it. I have seen many projects where a school builds a theatre and the folks who know the business are ignored. Getting yourself into a position where your voice will be heard is probably the most important thing you can do at this time.

Good luck with the project - and have fun.

 

[JChenault]

A few things that I have seen in theatres I have toured or worked in that I thought were wonderful.

• A black box theatre that did not try to do everything, but instead had seats that could be easily configured into one of three arangements - Thrust, Arena, Stadium. Makes it possible to quickly and easily change the seating arrangements without huge additional labor ( and have comfortable seating )
• In a black box theatre - long catwalks above the space for lighting. Acoustical reflectors on the bottom of the catwalks and multiple sets of pipes cantilevered between the catwalks for lighting ( or light flying )
• A black box theatre with counterweights at one end so when it was a thrust you could fly something in the background.
• Electrics on winches so you did not have to deal with re-weighting when you are hanging lights.
• Electric raceways with DMX receptacles so you don't have to run cable all over the place. ( or cat 5 receptacles)
• Running empty conduit everywhere you can think of.
• In a front of house lighting position with interesting geometry, not trying to figure out the correct location for hanging pipes, and instead putting in vertical pipes, and using horizontal pipes on cheseboroughs. You could adjust the location of your pipe as needed.

 

[JBrennan]

What do you love about your theatre, and why?

• We are a 3/4 Thrust and have the ability to do a show as such or as straight proscenium show, or both. Also we have fly lines installed downstage of the proscenium allowing us to fly things over the apron or over the thrust which is great.
  
• Due to budget cuts some of the arbors in this down stage system were never hooked up to battens/lifting lines, so I am able to rig them as spot lines anywhere I need to downstage of the proscenium and still counterweight with iron and train crew to run it as any other fly line would.
  
• There is a fixed lighting position that runs around the back wall of the theatre about 10' off the house floor that is very handy.
  
• Full size catwalks, 4' wide. Extremely easy to maneuver and walk around, no crouching, crawling or slithering to get to lighting positions. Also very safe when working with students and people completely new to theatre/heights.
  
• And this is not in my theatre, but the black box we had when I was an undergrad had a rolling catwalk system that would store at one end of the space and could be rolled along I-Beam rails underneath the grid to hang and focus a light plot. It was the most efficient system I've seen in a black box and made working up there a breeze.

What do you dislike about your theatre, and why?

• Handicap seating was not thought out very well. It was a last minute addition to the space and makes for an awkward breakup to the flow of the house and poor sight lines for those needing to sit there.
  
• The theatre department has no control of the green room which is used only for shows renting the space. This is only sad to me for the student's sake. They don't have a place in the building they can gather to hang out, do homework, rest between shows, etc. The best we have is our makeup room which is also a classroom and of course used during shows so frequently unavailable.
  
• Not being able to use our plenum storage under the audience seating. It was designed as prop storage but no fire suppression system was included or installed and thus it violates fire code to store anything in these areas. They sit huge, open, and unused.
  
• Our costume shop is insanely small. Ridiculously small. Painfully small. And also used for the majority of our storage. Huge mistake when they planned the place.

If you had built it, what would you keep and what would you have changed?

• Every theatre I have been in always needs more storage. Storage everywhere. Even if you don't need it now. I'd make every storage place twice as big as I thought I needed it.
  
• Also, and if you make this happen in your scene shop in 5 years I'll quit and come work for you. Windows. In. The. Scene. Shop. If I had my wishes granted we would have huge sky lights in the ceiling, or even going from 2/3rds up one wall and arcing into ceiling. I've only heard of one paint shop in NY that has this, but I think its an insane thing that gets over looked. Spending hours and hours of time in the shop/theatre and not being able to see time pass outside or the weather change really gets to me personally sometimes. Just one window/sky light in the shop would make all the difference in the world.

If you could have any type of performance space which would you choose: proscenium, black box, thrust, etc.?

Modified thrust. Which is what we call ours anyway. The ability to preform as a 3/4 thrust or straight proscenium show.


What is most challenging about your current space?

Lighting angles can get a bit steep for action down in the thrust but it's not horrible.

Good luck and I hope you check in now and then and let us know how it turns out over the years.

 

[rwhealey]

I'm working in a black box now and I wish that the architect had hired an acoustical consultant. The reverberation time is about 3x what is comfortable.

Fortunately, we have an excellent consultant who teaches here. I'll start a thread about the experience once we decide what to do.

 

[seanandkate]

Sean - how high is your grid? just curious

It's only 12'6". I'm getting used to top/side-hanging everything . . .

 

[mstaylor]

To take a slightly different approach - here are some of the dumbest things I have seen architects / contractors do.

• Put in a low door between the (tall ) scene ship and the (tall) stage.
• Fill up the overhead space with air ducts. Fill up the grid with air ducts.
• Not pay attention to the noise of your HVAC system ( a common problem )
• Not being clear on what kind of theatre shape. IE it's not a thrust, it's not a proscenium, it's a poke.
• Not thinking clearly about how to make the audience be a coherent group. ( There is a theatre in town that moved from a delightful thrust stage to a new theatre. The audience in that space is so cut up with architectural froo-froo that it is not a single group any more, but a collection of smaller groups. Makes the experience less powerful)
• Not thinking about how things / actors move. IE you need to think about how to get the sofa from the prop shop to the stage. How do your actors get from backstage to make an entrance through the audience, etc.
• Blackout vestibule coming into the seating space.
• No provision for audience desk(s) in the house.
• Allowing emergency exits through the theatre backstage spaces ( Sometimes this is unavoidable, but needs to be controlled).
• A floor you can not screw into.
• A scene shop with a 'Wooden end grain floor' ( at one point prevalent in educational institutions ) They put in 4x4 on end to make a wood floor so you get 3.5 x 3.5 squares of wood. If it gets wet it gets uneven.
• Control booths that are hermetically sealed from the stage space. Windows should open.
• Not considering railings in sight lines of your seating.
• No crossover behind the cyc ( Assuming a proscenium or thrust style of space here )
• No wing space.
• FOH lighting positions you have to crawl to get to, or that you cannot focus without lying on your stomach or crawling out on the plaster
• Large acoustical clouds that are not coordinated with the lighting positions.
• Too much technology where a simple solution would work better. ( for example, a multi scene preset house lighting system that is so hard to use that no one knows how to use it)
• Inconsistent circuit numbering and doubling.
• No downlight positions over the apron.
• Electric battens that do not have full travel

John:
There is a HS across the street that I swear you walked through to make your list.

 

[Studio]

Large Theater: 750 Seat Proscenium Built ~2003

Things I like:
-Nice Audio Install as far as parts.
-Good Curtins
-Nice Fly system with plenty of weights already on the loading galley.
-Stairs to FOH Catwalk which is a good 4 feet wide and very safe for new students.
-Plenty of work lights
-Dimmable Backstage "Blue Lights"
-Access to smaller 350 seat theater from the same scene shop.

Things I don't like:
-No access to FOH Catwalk from the Booth.
-Sound Rack/Amps are in the dimmer loft, hard to get to to fix something mid show.
-"Music storage room" causes no wing space SL
-No network access in the Booth, (cause we need 24 ports on stage and another 24 along the mezzanine wall, but none FOH, or in the booth.
-Scene Shop Door -Don't install a door that swings like a regular door. Get a rolling door between your stage and scene shop. The door that was installed is technically 20 feet tall, but has a metal bar at 10 feet and has 4 doors instead of 2. I spent 2 hours with my school's maintenance department and the TD trying to remove said bar, and after 60 minutes of dissembling and pounding we got it off. The way it was designed the bar would come off when the doors were open all the way, the only problem was that the doors were recessed into the wall so they only opened 3/4 of the way.

Let's just say that bar is not going back in. (Note: there is a separate rolling fire door)

 

[museav]

I'm working in a black box now and I wish that the architect had hired an acoustical consultant. The reverberation time is about 3x what is comfortable.

Fortunately, we have an excellent consultant who teaches here. I'll start a thread about the experience once we decide what to do.

Would that be Bob Coffeen? Is so then you definitely do have a fantastic resource.

 

[museav]

Things I don't like:
-Sound Rack/Amps are in the dimmer loft, hard to get to to fix something mid show.

Putting the amps and system processors closer to the speakers is good design practice. Those also should not need to be accessed mid-show if at all. If you are having to routinely access the amps or house system processors that seems to indicate problems other than where the equipment is located.

 

[bdkdesigns]

See, the opening door doesn't bother me. We had some gigantic metal doors in my last place. I never measured them but I would appoximate 40-50 tall and a good 10 feet wide each (two doors each in the opening that open like french doors w/out a center support). Our blackbox had identical doors only they were probably 5 feet wider and only about 16 feet tall.

Fun story when they were building the place (only because noone got hurt). One of the larger doors for the mainstage fell over when they were trying to install it. The force of such a large door falling caused some of the windows in the building across the street to shatter.

 

[museav]

There have been some great responses and there are lots of good 'tidbits' in there that can be invaluable later in the process, however based on my experience you are starting in the wrong direction. Before considering what the facility needs to physically be you should first define what it needs be functionally. Decisions like proscenium versus black box versus thrust are use based, which approach you employ should be based on your intended use and not what others have or do for their use. So maybe start with defining what the users, performances, goals and so on are for the facility and getting a coordinated functional definition for the facility that then forms a basis for many subsequent facility design decisions. There is likely going to be a tremendous amount of coordination between various design team members (Architects, Engineers, designers, etc.) between their work as well as with issues regarding code, budget and other considerations. This is one reason why it is so important to address the functional goals rather than just specifics as when conflicts do occur it is usually much better to be able to focus on maintaining the functionality rather than on maintaining one specific predefined solution. Without starting with a good definition of what you expect or want to be able to do in and with the facility, without first defining your vision for the facility, you are almost doomed to a facility that may not meet your expectations.

Also, you may want to clarify your role as an adviser. It may be important to know if your role is to provide input to the design team, especially any theatre or theatrical system designers, or if you are expected to serve as the 'expert' and designer for those aspects. As a facility and system designer I love having clients that can clearly define their goals and expectations to any relevant parties on the design team. On the other hand, I dread clients that try to be facility or system designers when there are other parties serving in those roles, especially if they have very set ideas and limited experience in the facility design and construction process.

 

[rwhealey]

Would that be Bob Coffeen? Is so then you definitely do have a fantastic resource.

Yep!

He's a really great guy - and he's been doing it for a long time. I think he designed several of the lecture halls on campus in the late 60s.

I'm not quite far enough in my program that I'm in his classes, but I'm excited that I can work with him and his grad students on my project.

 

[Ric]

I saw this on another forum and it seems really appropriate here.

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