Loudspeakers Outdoor Theatre Sound System Help

[LDtrappedinanSM]

Hey Gang!
I have been given the task of fitting an outdoor venue with a sound system. I'm looking for tips, ideas and thoughts. At this point all I need to do is have a few ideas for what equipment to purchase. Ideally the speakers would be mounted to stay up all year. In Michigan that means snow, rain, high winds and extreme heat and humidity depending on the day. We may use wireless body mics, but mostly general mics like floor or hanging mics. Sound really isn't my thing, but I know a little bit about it and in my group that makes me the winner.
Any suggestions you can give me would be awesome!

 

[Studio]

Hey Gang!
I have been given the task of fitting an outdoor venue with a sound system. I'm looking for tips, ideas and thoughts. At this point all I need to do is have a few ideas for what equipment to purchase. Ideally the speakers would be mounted to stay up all year. In Michigan that means snow, rain, high winds and extreme heat and humidity depending on the day. We may use wireless body mics, but mostly general mics like floor or hanging mics. Sound really isn't my thing, but I know a little bit about it and in my group that makes me the winner.
Any suggestions you can give me would be awesome!

I don't know much about outdoor system's, but my 2c is have the speakers mounted outside and have everything else (amp, mixer, eq, cd, etc...) on a rack that can be rolled outside and put away inside when not in use.

 

[fx120]

Keep in mind when purchasing speakers that "outdoor rated", doesn't mean that they will hold up to direct rain or snow, just that they have employed some method of sealing against indirect rain or water from penetrating the grill/ cabinet, and have treated the box to hold up to UV exposure. Almost all outdoor speakers are intended to be installed in "shielded" locations, in other words under a roof that will protect them from direct exposure.

Depending on the size of the venue and how often you plan on using the space, you're probably just better of looking at a semi-portable system.

Honestly if you're going through the hassle of setting up microphones and everything else, it only takes a few more minutes to set up a pair of speakers. The wiring can be permanently installed, so all you would have to do is put the speakers out and plug them into the jack on the floor/wall/pillar/ect. The amplifier/processing/mixer could all be located in a roll-around rack, that would again just plug into permanently installed jacks, and you'd be off and rolling. This way the equipment can be stored in a climate controlled environment that would also be secure.

You might also want to consider consulting with a local AV contractor that can come up with a complete solution for you.

 

[museav]

I have been given the task of fitting an outdoor venue with a sound system. I'm looking for tips, ideas and thoughts. At this point all I need to do is have a few ideas for what equipment to purchase.

Equipment and a system to do what for what for how much? Seriously, other than it being outdoors and in some part of Michigan, we know nothing about the venue, the use, the users, the budget, the goals and expectations, the envisioned procurement and installation process and so on. There needs to be some basis for any equipment selections and I would start with that first.

I'd also like to clarify the outdoor and environmental requirements based on the comment about using floor mics and hanging mics. The environmental conditions noted for the speakers would likely affect other equipment and infrastructure as well and hanging mics suggests a roof while the plan for floor mics seem to contradict with a direct outdoor exposure.

 

[bishopthomas]

Just bring in a professional who does this thing every day. It sounds like a simple setup for a pro, but a botched job from someone asking this question on an online forum.

 

[jbrem003]

I would recommend looking into the Meyers line of sound equipment. It's a little more pricey, but the rigging and weather protection shielding is all available from them. They are very high quality speakers used extensively in theatrical settings and deliver top grade performance. The best part is they offer any number of consultations for free, have an enormous knowledge and training base, and once you purchase from them, opportunities for education open up utilizing their equipment. In an outdoor setting you have a lot of sound dispersion due to a general lack of reflective surfaces, so you want a speaker that can direct sound at your audience. These types of speakers are called Arrays and are a good place to start asking questions. Keep in mind you'll need to consider a subwoofer as well to represent those lower frequencies. Contacting Meyers will let you know about your nearest vendor and they can also advise on a purchase. They'll even take schematics for free and work with your budget to propose different levels of systems depending on what you're looking for. What you described about the rolling enclosure is a Matrix 3 LCS system that they sell. It's a bit complicated and definitely has a learning curve, but will put you in a very good position for anyone that learns how to use it for understanding sound reinforcement.

Sandy MacDonald is who you're looking to talk to to put you in the right direction for gathering info.
T: +1 508.870.9800
F: +1 508.870.2800

In case you're wondering, No I do not represent/work for this company, I just have worked with their systems now for two years solid to be very comfortable in recommending them and genuinely impressed with the work they do and the products they make

Best,
-Jon Bremner
Resident Designer,
"Generic Theater," Norfolk, VA

 

[museav]

In case you're wondering, No I do not represent/work for this company, I just have worked with their systems now for two years solid to be very comfortable in recommending them and genuinely impressed with the work they do and the products they make.

Meyer makes some very nice products and they are highly regarded in the theatre world, but as anyone who has taken advantage of their training or read Bob McCarthy's books would know, you still want the right solution for the application and that is more than just picking a brand. My first concern here would be budget, it would be unusual that there would be a Meyer/LCS budget for a venue where a person who by their own admission does not know that much about sound is charged with coming up with the sound system.

In an outdoor setting you have a lot of sound dispersion due to a general lack of reflective surfaces, so you want a speaker that can direct sound at your audience. These types of speakers are called Arrays and are a good place to start asking questions.

Dispersion is a factor of the speaker, a lack of reflecting surfaces would not affect the dispersion and you typically want to minimize sound from the speakers hitting reflective surfaces anyways so I don't follow the logic presented at all, however the suggestions of an array (I assume it is line arrays being referenced although there are many other forms of arrays such as curvilinear arrays, point source arrays, tight packed arrays, Bessel arrays, exploded arrays and so on) is a good example of the type of conclusion which seems to have little or no basis without knowing more about the application. A line array may be a great option or a very poor one, there does not appear to be sufficient information to make such an assessment.

Many of Meyer's educational offerings are excellent, and not limited to purchasers of their equipment, however I was at a presentation by a Meyer representative that resulted in later discussion among several attendees regarding the inaccuracy and inapplicability of some of the information presented, so it seems the excellence unfortunately does not extend to all Meyer education. I should probably also note that Meyer was eliminated from consideration on more than one of my projects in the last few years after failing to follow up as promised or to provide the needed support, so my experiences with their support have obviously been less stellar than Jon's.

 

[Chris15]

Unless I've misunderstood, we have yet to establish whether we are talking about sound for 100 or 10000, that will SIGNIFICANTLY affect any other recommendation we can make, along with budget and expected performance...

 

[FMEng]

Specifying a system for outdoor use is much trickier than for an auditorium. Inside a room, a pair of "music store" speakers with a typical 12" or 15" woofer and a horn will do many jobs decently and to remarkably loud levels.

Outside there are few reflectives surfaces, such as ceiliings and walls, to help direct all of the sound energy to the audience. The sound level attenuates rapidly with distance compared to indoors. The speakers have to work much harder to acheive the same loundness, and it is easier to approach their limits which causes increased distortion and unpleasant sound. The amplifiers have to deliver more power to the speakers and do it regardless of the ambient temperature.

Consequently, you have to have a good idea of how much sound level you need, what the program material is (music or speech), whether or not you need extended bass response, how big the audience area is, how even you need the coverage to be, etc.

Once those things are known, then you can begin to consider what kind of speakers to use, how much power they'll need, where to place them, whether delay fills are needed, and on and on.

You get the idea. You should consult some professionals to help you.

 

[CSCTech]

As for speakers you would be looking for outdoor stadium speakers, useally they are horns and no drivers, but I do not know your full situation, but either way you will need outdoor rated speakers and like some said, 'outdoor speakers' might not take snow and hard rain, so they should be placed in the most sheltered position and maybe even having some way to close them up without taking them down when not in use.

As for amplification and processing, I would run the speaker cables down to a main mix position you would use everytime, and have those outlits in a watertight enclosure aswell. And like others said, on a wheels cart that can be kept in an enclosure/shed type building near the outdoor stage/arena/whatever you have or if it is an addition to a main building to keep the rack in there. Not sure what your doing there, so can't suggest much, but a rack mounted sound board, whatever amplification you will need ( do not skimp out on power here, I have done out doors gigs before, you will regret not having enough power. Like others said, it will be lose very soon.
For equipment, maybe a CD player or dedicated laptop, 15-32 band graphic eq, possibly an effects unit if you want to do some different things with your sound.
Whatever you want, but your best bet is to go to your local supplier and ask for speakers for your situation. Not chain stores like Guitar Center or whatever. They will sell you anything..

Hope it works out

 

[museav]

As for speakers you would be looking for outdoor stadium speakers, useally they are horns and no drivers...

That would be a very quiet speaker! A horn is just that, you still need a driver for it to make any sound. The Community R or Wet Series probably come closest to a 'stadium horn' that would be acceptable for a performance space while One Systems and Technomad offer some more traditional format outdoor products that sound pretty good and you now see primarily those and weatherized versions of Danley Sound, QSC, JBL, EAW, etc. products used in stadiums and outdoor sports venues.

Whatever you want, but your best bet is to go to your local supplier and ask for speakers for your situation. Not chain stores like Guitar Center or whatever. They will sell you anything..

So will many "suppliers", especially those with limited product options to offer. What you probably ideally want is an integrated system design by a qualified system designer, whether that is practical or justified likely depends on the scope of the work and the budget. But they will need to know the same type of information being asked for here.


While a little off topic, I'd like to address some other comments. Typically, a well designed sound system maximizes the direct-to-reverberant energy ratio, in other words you try to get the sound from the speakers directed at the listeners and to minimize the sound directed at walls, ceilings, etc. So the concept that the sound reflecting off the walls is significant in an indoor scenario is not necessarily true for well designed systems.

Sound outdoors does tend to drop off at or close close to a theoretical inverse square law rate of 20log(distance/reference distance) or 6dB per doubling of distance while due to the acoustical environment sound indoors tends to drop off less rapidly with distance up to the Critical Distance at which point you start getting into the reverberant field and the levels by definition are reverberant controlled and no longer change with distance. However, what the difference is between an indoor and outdoor scenario depends on several factors including the size of the space, the acoustics of the space and the direct-to-reverberant energy ratio of the sound system. A situation where the distances from speaker to listener are short, most of the sound to listeners is direct and the room is dead may exhibit minimal difference from outdoors. On the other hand, if the sound has to travel greater distances to the listeners, much of what is received is indirect and the room is live, the difference can be significant.

It is also not as though outdoor spaces may not have 'walls' or 'ceilings'. The amphitheater I worked at many years ago had 20' or so high 'walls' around the entire audience area and a roof over the fixed seating (5,000 fixed seats, 15,000 on the lawn), a situation not that uncommon for a number of amphitheaters. Or look at the Filene Center at Wolf Trap, an outdoor performance space designed much like a concert hall with a balcony, acoustical reflectors, etc.

What it all really comes down to is that without knowing more about the venue, use, operation and so on, we are all limited to just guessing.

 

[CSCTech]

Sorry, I did not meen without a driver, rather with no mid range. A loudspeaker. That you see outdoors, although like I said this most likely would not suit the purpose if it is a performance space as it would sound pitiful.

And well yes, But I simply meant as someone you know, rather then some large chain. And like you and others said a proffesional dealing with outdoor speaker setups will be the way to go. However I would said the money and have that person design the actual speaker setup and position wiring etc. but leave the rest of the system to yourself unless you like a package he or she will offer if they do so.

 

[museav]

However I would said the money and have that person design the actual speaker setup and position wiring etc. but leave the rest of the system to yourself unless you like a package he or she will offer if they do so.

Maybe your experience is more with music stores and mass retailers than with professional designers, contractors and consultants. While system design and product procurement can be directly tied to one another, they can also be totally separated. Many people make a living designing systems but don't sell any equipment and even firms that do sell equipment can often provide design services independent of any equipment sales. And regardless of who is designing the system, good design practice includes working with the users and Owner to incorporate their input into the design, not just selling them what you want. Someone 'designing' a system around the products they want to sell rather than selecting the products to serve the application is a salesperson, not a systems designer.

Expanding on this, the project process is something people often do not even think about, instead jumping right into all the cool toys. However, determining how the project will progress and who will be doing what should really happen before getting into equipment. For example, if everything has to be bid as a single bid using a competitive bid process, that would likely significantly affect the associated project process and documentation. So might if what is bid is simply providing equipment in boxes versus it including installation, setup, testing, training, warranty, documentation, etc. Laying out the project process and defining the associated deliverables, milestones and responsibilities for that project should be one of the first things done on any sizable project. This is enough of an issue in the professional world that it is the subject of both a book (InfoComm International Audiovisual (AV) Audiovisual Best Practices) and the recently approved ANSI/InfoComm Standard 2M-2010 "Standard Guide for Audiovisual Systems Design and Coordination Processes".

There are some real basic issues to be defined before addressing what may be appropriate from what the physical venue is like to whether it will be used by resident groups, tours, community use, etc. and the types of performances envisioned to budget to how the systems are being procured. Without that type of information we have no real idea what could be appropriate or not.

 

[hsaunier]

The words can't be repeated enough on this forum...... Know what you need the system to do before you choose any equipment. Find a system designer to help you with the process. If you have never designed a system yourself... you will fail on your first attempt, and unless you are spending your own money... you have wasted someone elses. This may sound a tad harsh, but I've seen too many systems which were a botched job because, "we can save money by asking this guy....he knows how to turn the sound system on at church". In the long run it's a waste of money because the system will not perform to expectations, and have to be removed and another system installed, or people will just choose to not come to events because they can't hear what is going on anyway. This post is not about trying to get work for system consultants or designers but about stewardship of money. Just because you know how to drive a car does not mean you know how to design one.

 

[FMEng]

While a little off topic, I'd like to address some other comments. Typically, a well designed sound system maximizes the direct-to-reverberant energy ratio, in other words you try to get the sound from the speakers directed at the listeners and to minimize the sound directed at walls, ceilings, etc. So the concept that the sound reflecting off the walls is significant in an indoor scenario is not necessarily true for well designed systems.

I should have stated that I was grossly over simplifying. I was just trying to get across the concept that system performance can be a different ball game outside. You did an excellent job of explaining this precisely.

 

[LDtrappedinanSM]

If actors could project better it would be great acoustically, aside from the traffic noise, wind and occasional speed boat.
The original idea was to put a roof on this structure and mount speakers and lighting underneath. As of now, we don't know if the roof is actually happening so I've decided to recommend everything stay portable, can you recommend to me a system that would be good for a variety of things (spoken word, music, whatever the city might want to put down there)? Specifically for my group, we want to set up mics that would pick up an actor from several feet away, we'd love to stay away from body mics. I've been looking at a few Yamaha and Peavy systems, but the reviews say they're not great for outdoor venues.

 

[HillJonathan]

I worked in an outdoor theater for a while and here are the speakers we used: Technomad LLP ? Products (MP, AS Series Indoor / Outdoor Loudspeakers, Schedulon Mp3 player recorder, PowerChiton weatherproof amplifiers ) » Technomad.
They never failed us and we left them out 24/7. Just after hang we had a major rain storm roll through and they held up fine. They didn't sound half bad either.

 

[museav]

If actors could project better it would be great acoustically, aside from the traffic noise, wind and occasional speed boat.

Specifically for my group, we want to set up mics that would pick up an actor from several feet away, we'd love to stay away from body mics.

These would typically be conflicting situations, any mics located some distance from the actors would also tend to pick up all the ambient noises. Between that, gain before feedback and issues related to being outdoors without cover, I'm not sure how practical it is to plan on distance micing anything. It's not that you won't get something but it may not be what you want.

Consider this, moving a mic from being 6" away to 6' away effectively loses almost 22dB of potential gain before feedback and signal to noise relative to the ambient noise floor. Make it from 3" to 10' and it's 32dB. Those are big numbers to try to overcome.

The original idea was to put a roof on this structure and mount speakers and lighting underneath. As of now, we don't know if the roof is actually happening so I've decided to recommend everything stay portable...

Does that mean everything has to be ground stacked or on sticks or might there be some type of temporary truss system or other method of flying the speakers? Do you have to keep certain pathways, such as between the stage and seating clear or any obstacles or potential hazards?

Looking at pictures provided one of my first thoughts was "Where would you put speakers?" I'm not sure if the pictures reflect the full size and configuration of the seating or overall venue, e.g. do the six risers in the one picture show the entire seating or is there audience area behind that, but with the actors spread across the entire stage area and no truss or roof that seems to push the speakers to outside the stage and into the audience area, or at least the area between the stage and audience.

...can you recommend to me a system that would be good for a variety of things (spoken word, music, whatever the city might want to put down there)? Specifically for my group, we want to set up mics that would pick up an actor from several feet away, we'd love to stay away from body mics. I've been looking at a few Yamaha and Peavy systems, but the reviews say they're not great for outdoor venues.

The big questions are budget, transportability and operation. How much do you have to spend, how compact and easy to setup does the system need to be and who would be operating it? Other issues could include things such as whether you need to really focus the sound on the audience and minimize spill outside the audience area in order to comply with local ordinances or avoid complaints. Might the city want to use this system for high level, lots of low frequency type concerts or is the intent to support many types of events but still rely on rental systems for such events?

Sorry to keep asking questions but it is all too easy to not ask what turns out to be a critical question and end up suggesting something that turns out to provide a less than acceptable result.

 

[LDtrappedinanSM]

Budget is not a concern as of yet, this is all just a pie in the sky concept. We want to provide suggestions and let them decide if they want to spend the money on it.

My understanding is they are going to want to be able to provide for anyone who might want to use the venue. Speakers, small concerts, large concerts, musicals, straight plays whatever.

Our city's take on noise is 'as long as its over by 10pm we won't bother you'.

I would like a simple set up simple break down in case it needs to be struck due to a sudden rain shower. Also because you never know who would be operating it.

I'm envisioning speakers on stands, on either side of the audience, you can kind of see the space between the edge of the cement slab of stage and edge of the seating. I'd prefer they would hang but since they may not be covered I worry that it would take longer to take down should it suddenly storm.

The picture with the seats, was taken from the middle, there are about four more steps going up and people don't generally sit on the grass at the top of the hill. The seats continue to the left basically following the curve of the stage.

Thanks for all your input by the way, even if we can't recommend something, we can at least tell them what to think about.

 

[museav]

Budget may not seem a concern, until they see the numbers then it tends to suddenly become a concern.

I've been involved in several community, city and county amphitheater projects. The direction taken typically falls into one of three general approaches:

1. Spend a significant amount to support the wide range of events envisioned. This investment is not just in equipment but often in personnel and infrastructure as well.

2. Define a reduced level of event that represents the vast majority of typical use and a spend a significantly smaller amount on systems based on supporting those uses. Rent systems as needed for larger events.

3. Focus on the infrastructure (power, cabling paths, physical space and so on) and either rent systems or let performers bring their own systems as appropriate for each event.


In your case, the facility being existing could factor into the decision. For example, does the venue have the power provisions to support sound and lighting for a significant concert event? If not then supplementing what is there needs to be part of the project or there seems to be little sense in providing systems that would require renting a generator, etc.

One potential benefit of it being an existing facility is that there may be some history of audio, video and lighting systems that have been used for events held there in the past. That could provide some reference for what may be required and what was or was not acceptable for the type of events envisioned.

Absent any historical information, you mentioned looking at some packaged systems, probably something like this, Buy Yamaha EMX5016CF / S115V / SM15V PA System | Live Sound Packages | Musician's Friend, or this, Yamaha Concert Sound System 8400Watts with MG32/14FX Console and FREE ITEMS !!!. There are still going to be numerous other items required for an functional system such as a snake to get from the stage to the mix position, other mics, mic and speaker stands, power distribution, racks for equipment, storage cases. A packaged system like this supplemented with the proper additional components might work fine for some types of events. However, this would probably not be sufficient for many concert events, both in aspects such as quantity and type of mics as well as in the speaker system performance, and it would be very unlikely to be acceptable to anyone with a tech rider. Just as a reference, a very experienced live sound operator put together a typical 'small bar/club' system for someone starting from scratch and came up with a bit over $25,000. Now you could do something for much less, but that was also for a system in a smaller indoor space for maybe 100-200 people, outdoors and for a larger audience would much more likely push the cost in the other direction.

Providing a system that could support concerts will probably be a big jump in cost. And I'm not talking about just for rock and pop music concerts, the local university here does an annual Fourth of July "concert on the green" that last year had the local county symphony performing. The mics, mixing and speaker system required to support even a local symphony are extensive and the system they rented for that event combined with the mics they supplied were probably worth well over $100,000.

I'll be upfront and say that my experience with similar situations where they initially wanted to have everything in place to support a very wide range of events is that few actually continued in that direction once realistic budget numbers started being presented. Rather than getting into details for the systems it may be better to first define a more general level. No use discussing a $50k+ option or even a $20k+ option if they are thinking under $10k. And if that is the case, while you could put together a system for that budget it would have to be accompanied by some significant 'expectation management' regarding the types of events it could practically support.

Hope that helps.