Performance Comparison: ETC S4WRD vs. HPL 575Wx

[SteveB]

Mr. Bailey--

You and I have known each other professionally for 35 years, plus or minus--just sayin'.

A few points:

4. The S4WRD is not aimed at the high-end professional market. It's primarily aimed at places where a daisy-chained lighting position with 20 fixtures really does not care about RJ45 vs. XLR5--other than the fact that the XLR connectors add significant cost.

5. We are in a different world now--one created by LED luminaires. That creates new realities--such as the acceptability of RJ45 in low- cost DMX applications.

6. I suggest that if you analyze the cost, the use of RJ45's on an S4WRD daisy chain makes economic sense, despite the fact that it might cause us to initially recoil due to "non-standard" application. This is likely true even in a system with other equipment using XLR5 connectors--one that requires an RJ45 tin in parallel with an XLR5 run.

7. I will take this opportunity to remind you that S4WRD represents an order-of-magnitude reduction in LED conversion costs. The reality is that there are compromises associated with that reduction. At the end of the day, the market will tell us if we did the right or the wrong thing.

I am sure that you, and others, will tell me how you feel on this issue!

Best regards,

ST

All well stated in a nutshell, as always.

It is indeed a new world we live in in some ways and I am reminded of a generation earlier then us who lamented the move to tungsten halogen.

Thanks Steve.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Interesting debate. I'd guess a new yoke and the other receptacle would add a substantial cost per unit. It will be a tough sell regardless in the high school market, and to add a more time consuming changeover and more expensive jumpers - if they are doing that even - just makes fewer sales.

I don't know the break down - I'm pretty sure ETC does - but probably 10 or more S4s that rarely move in high schools for every one in rental or a professional theatre.

 

[Thetechmanmac]

Coming from a high school where fixtures barely move and no DMX distribution in place, RJ45 would work just fine. The S4WRD is not a product for touring theatre, broadway, and large theatres out there- places like that can afford fixtures like lustr 2 and desires. 4WRD is a product that is perfect for schools and installs. Schools are awful for upgrading equipment. (We are upgrading our expression 3 to an Element and can only do it on donations) so when upgrading equipment, sometimes the only thing they care about is how much will it save them per year and how much does it cost to get it installed.

I really don't think that an RJ45 connector is going to hurt the product in any way. Once again, this product is not meant for the road or broadway.

I have one question- why all the hate for 3 pin DMX? I make all of my cable. I Buy bulk DMX cable and just put on 3 pin connectors. I understand the fact that the higher end fixtures use only 5 pin. I completely agree that 3 pin mic cable should never be used, but if DMX only uses 3 wires, why is it frowned upon to use 3 pin DMX, even if it is not the "industry standard"?

 

[tommygun]

The Source Four Lustrs would really benefit from a longer yoke. (So would a S4 with a Seachanger, but that combo seems to be going to way of the dodo.) I'm kind of surprised ETC doesn't offer one as an after-market add-on, rather like the split yokes available for the ColorSource PARs.

The rumors of the SeaChanger extinction are highly exaggerated. SeaChanger is alive and well and can offer up an extended 16 inch yoke ME451-59 . To address the Dodo comment, it is quite understandable that many people are concluding we are no longer in the picture. Why is this ? From a : marketing standpoint , SeaChanger has been off the radar the past several years (corporate budget focus on spectral imaging cameras.... adding a $3M class 100 clean room etc.... not our decision) ; technical standpoint, the subtractive nature of the Seachanger CYM (XG) color mixing, required the LED technology to develop an manufacture a : full spectrum white (close to it); high output; point source lamp. You can say we were waiting to the white LED lamp technology to catch up with SeaChanger. The good news is our clean room is completed and budgets have loosened already resulting in a new design of a White LED SeaChanger utilizing the white LED ETC S4WRD adding to the existing SeaCHanger long throw Tungsten and HMI product lines. You should be seeing and hearing more of SeaChanger in the upcoming months.

 

[sk8rsdad]

the subtractive nature of the Seachanger CYM (XG) color mixing

If the argument for LEDs is energy efficiency then could you please explain the reasoning behind using a subtractive mixing system as opposed to an additive mixing system? Is there something I'm missing?

 

[DELO72]

...utilizing the white LED ETC S4WRD adding to the existing SeaCHanger long throw Tungsten and HMI product lines.

Hi TommyGun,

Very happy to hear Seachanger is alive and well! But you don't have an HMI product line. You may have a "Daylight-like CCT or spectrum" product line, but "HMI" products are made by one company and one company only-- OSRAM. We invented HMI and we own the trademark to HMI.

 

[RickR]

I have one question- why all the hate for 3 pin DMX? I make all of my cable. I Buy bulk DMX cable and just put on 3 pin connectors. I understand the fact that the higher end fixtures use only 5 pin. I completely agree that 3 pin mic cable should never be used, but if DMX only uses 3 wires, why is it frowned upon to use 3 pin DMX, even if it is not the "industry standard"?

I have a couple of deep issues with 3 pin.

• It's just too easy to confuse with mic cable. Sure lot's of folks can keep them apart, but most have issues.
  
• "industry standard" meaning common practice is not the same as a Standard for the industry. DMX512 (ANSI E1.11) is defined by a document that lays out the fine technical details. If you follow it everything works. If you don't then you get problems. "The Standard" says 2 pairs, 5 pin.
  
• The emotion comes from the daily frustration when some gear is 3 and some is 5. So no matter what you prefer you have to constantly deal with both. That's a hassle that should never have arisen.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

I have a couple of deep issues with 3 pin.

• It's just too easy to confuse with mic cable. Sure lot's of folks can keep them apart, but most have issues.
  
• "industry standard" meaning common practice is not the same as a Standard for the industry. DMX512 (ANSI E1.11) is defined by a document that lays out the fine technical details. If you follow it everything works. If you don't then you get problems. "The Standard" says 2 pairs, 5 pin.
  
• The emotion comes from the daily frustration when some gear is 3 and some is 5. So no matter what you prefer you have to constantly deal with both. That's a hassle that should never have arisen.

If your "by yourself", don't rent, rarely buy new gear, one person responsible for all: it doesn't matter till the "one person" is gone and the next person comes in. Makes a point of the difference between say a standard for fire sprinklers or fall protection, which can affect the well being of people, and a standard for DMX or email signatures, which doesn't really harm anything if not followed.

 

[MikeJ]

I'd like to see a meter reading along side the video. Cameras are not eyes and I'm a numbers sort of person. Maybe a dimming curve chart would be easier?

I loved that you put skin in some of the colors.

Yes, but the problem is what that meter is measuring? Center beam candlepower? Sure, but that's not as important as total field lumens, which is difficult or impossible to measure with one spot meter reading.

Thanks for the comment on color--that's where ETC is living right now!

ST

Those fade curves are not actually very far apart when measured.


ST

Hold the phone! Seriously?! Are we measuring or not? You can't have it both ways. I know there are some stupid people on this forum, but you cannot actually expect people to believe that the comparison in the video CANNOT be measured in one post, and then argue that the MEASURED results are better than in the video in the next post.

 

[MikeJ]

WOW! Really long video. Way too long; little information.

 

[MikeJ]

7. I will take this opportunity to remind you that S4WRD represents an order-of-magnitude reduction in LED conversion costs.

ST

Is this true? An order of magnitude is logarithmic, I.E. Ten Times. So you are telling me that there are no comparable LED replacements for less than $6000?

 

[MNicolai]

@MikeJ, Do you need a hug?

 

[robartsd]

I think 2x can be considered an "order of magnitude" in some cases, and S4WRD is about half the cost of comparable alternatives. However, if you buy the comparable alternatives, you still have the instrument you are replacing which could be sold to recoup some of that cost difference - so the S4WRD retrofit might only net about 30-40% less costly than alternatives.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

I think 2x can be considered an "order of magnitude" in some cases, and S4WRD is about half the cost of comparable alternatives. However, if you buy the comparable alternatives, you still have the instrument you are replacing which could be sold to recoup some of that cost difference - so the S4WRD retrofit might only net about 30-40% less costly than alternatives.

I did too - I often am asked for an off the cuff estimate and I refer to it as an order of magnitude estimate - not more than double or half - but an order of magnitude is indeed 10x or 1/10th - technically. The discussion does begin to cause me to wonder who MikeJ works for.

 

[MikeJ]

I work for the people. Just keepin it 100.

 

[Malabaristo]

Hold the phone! Seriously?! Are we measuring or not? You can't have it both ways. I know there are some stupid people on this forum, but you cannot actually expect people to believe that the comparison in the video CANNOT be measured in one post, and then argue that the MEASURED results are better than in the video in the next post.

You missed an important part of Steve's first comment: he was interpreting the request for a meter reading as having a light-meter visible in the shot for each fixture. This wouldn't give very meaningful results because a slight difference in position between the two meters, or slight bench focus differences between the fixtures would give significantly different readings. Obviously it is possible to measure the brightness in a more meaningful way, but not with the setup used to make this video. You would have to do that with just one fixture at a time using something that captures all of the light output of each fixture individually. Presumably Steve's comment on measured performance was based on this sort of testing.

 

[RickR]

@Malabaristo I believe both you and @STEVETERRY misinterpreted my request. (not a big deal, but now its getting mixed up) I was trying to get a numerical reference during the dimming to see what the individual dimming curves are doing over time. There are dimmer levels showing, but nothing numeric on brightness. I really didn't see some of the issues commented on in the video, but saw others that bothered me. When it comes right down to it I don't trust video for lighting. I am certain they've done extensive testing, I'd like to see some of those results. Putting it into a sales video would be a bonus.

For this sort of measurement ANY location is valid and could (maybe should) be reduced to percentage of full. I'd be doing that calc in my head anyway. One presumes that both fixtures are in very good condition and that the locations are selected with some care. Yes there is some minor change to the beam pattern during dimming, but really that's a very minor point. There is also the point of not putting too much trust into any sales presentation. I'll be demo'ing before spending!

FWIW There was a small rant years ago from a knowledgeable and respected member in this forum, on how CBCP is the only measurement that matters for beam fixtures.

It's also worth pointing out that Steve's 'not far apart' comment was on a comparison not shown- LED on dimmer vs on DMX.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

If someone is demoing these on mains dimming, please check zero count blackout as well as fade from zero to on after the units been off for a while.

 

[DeadCheerios]

The light itself looks great. I just wish the dimming from a dimmer was closer.

 

[MikeJ]

You missed an important part of Steve's first comment: he was interpreting the request for a meter reading as having a light-meter visible in the shot for each fixture. This wouldn't give very meaningful results because a slight difference in position between the two meters, or slight bench focus differences between the fixtures would give significantly different readings. Obviously it is possible to measure the brightness in a more meaningful way, but not with the setup used to make this video. You would have to do that with just one fixture at a time using something that captures all of the light output of each fixture individually. Presumably Steve's comment on measured performance was based on this sort of testing.

This does not make any sense at all. Of all people, I would certainly hope that the manufacturer could bench focus their own fixture. Using a light meter(pick the same spot on each beam, say, center, maybe even a measurement on the edge as well, to show how flat the field is) is the only scientific way to measure the differences. It would be quite simple to measure each one and write down the numbers, then in post, superimpose those numbers next to each fixture. Professionals use light meters to measure and balance fixtures every day, when I compare demo units, out comes the light meter, because without it your eye can easily be fooled.

@Malabaristo I believe both you and @STEVETERRY misinterpreted my request. (not a big deal, but now its getting mixed up) I was trying to get a numerical reference during the dimming to see what the individual dimming curves are doing over time. There are dimmer levels showing, but nothing numeric on brightness. I really didn't see some of the issues commented on in the video, but saw others that bothered me. When it comes right down to it I don't trust video for lighting. I am certain they've done extensive testing, I'd like to see some of those results. Putting it into a sales video would be a bonus.

For this sort of measurement ANY location is valid and could (maybe should) be reduced to percentage of full. I'd be doing that calc in my head anyway. One presumes that both fixtures are in very good condition and that the locations are selected with some care. Yes there is some minor change to the beam pattern during dimming, but really that's a very minor point. There is also the point of not putting too much trust into any sales presentation. I'll be demo'ing before spending!

FWIW There was a small rant years ago from a knowledgeable and respected member in this forum, on how CBCP is the only measurement that matters for beam fixtures.

It's also worth pointing out that Steve's 'not far apart' comment was on a comparison not shown- LED on dimmer vs on DMX.

Ahh, I see, maybe show a graph with the DMX curve necessary to approximate the same output through the dimming? Interesting to see, but every led is different, so trial and error to get the right curve is probably going to be required. But, If there was a published curve to match a HPL on a dimmer, it would make short work of matching them up on any desk.

Personally, though we have become accustom to non-linear dimming, amber shift, and a ramp up/down on bumps, I never really considered these to be "features" but, more like side effects. Sometimes they have desirable effects, but I would rather have the option whether or not to use them.