Control/Dimming Purchasing a New Console

[waynehoskins]

After looking at the console's data sheet, what kind of monitor/video output is nine pins?

CGA. Maybe EGA. Could even be MDA.

All things that predate VGA. They were common on PCs (and thus microprocessor-based lightboards) well into the '90s.

 

[midgetgreen11]

Yes, I used an old Access board provided by a professional that we hire for sound. It used a 9 pin, but it was missing about 3 of them. It was a simple display system though, so it still worked.

And the diagram shows 9, but the words say VGA. Weird.

 

[midgetgreen11]

So I received an e-mail in my school account yesterday from the Maintenance Department Supervisor. The principal; whom I'd sent an e-mail to regarding pricing that I had found, forwarded my e-mail to the supervisor, who then replied to me, the principal, and the "Director of Administrative Business" or something like that, saying that, "with those prices, we'll have to go out to bid." Anyone care to explain exactly what that means?

 

[thommyboy]

In most school environments any capitol outlay above some threshold, for us $1000, requires asking at least 3 companies to try and earn your business. Each company is asked to send in their best offer for what they will charge for whatever good or service they would be providing. This theoretically protects the tax payers from being gouged by "preferred vendors", or as we call it here "the Chicago way".

 

[lieperjp]

Before deciding on the EDI Bijou, consider from Leviton: either the 7500 series (inexpensive, but no monitor) or the MC 24/48 (very Express-like).

You could always try the Leviton Innovator as well. We have a 48/96 (I think) and though I hate to admit it... it functions quite well in daily use. When pushed to the limits, however, it tends to crash (though not frequently), but I wouldn't doubt that any light board in this price range would do that. We have 59 circuts, no movers, no DMX toys. (But we are considering purchasing a few Apollo Right Arms.)

Derek, what's the difference between the Innovator and the MC24/48? They're the same picture!!! The specs are extremely similar as well. If I had to guess, I would say the MC24/48 would not be the best bet for moving lights, but the Innovator is designed to handle moving lights.

 

[soundlight]

what's the difference between the Innovator and the MC24/48? They're the same picture!!! The specs are extremely similar as well. If I had to guess, I would say the MC24/48 would not be the best bet for moving lights, but the Innovator is designed to handle moving lights.

Same thing. The Innovator is just available in different fader/channel configurations. The MC 24/48 happened when NSI and Colortran merged, it's really a shared console, just in different housings and configurations. I've used it a few times, and always found the syntax annoying and the display layout not that great. I've also heard that it isn't the most stable console in the world either... That being said, I've been a fan of NSI for middle-budget products for a while, and the 7500 series (though not a choice in this situation) is a very solid set of boards, as is the MLC16 (if only it had an effects package!!!!!).

I've used a few EDI boards (but not the Bijou), and they were all older boards but still functioned rather well. The faders seemed to be of good quality, and the boards were easy to use. Even after something like 8 years of use...

I think that the Bijou would be a good option, as it has familiar programming syntax, and is expandable with a handeld remote, offline, and even a designer's remote.

The 7500 series is far below the price considerations here, and with not enough theatrical functionality to justify it over the Bijou at all.

 

[TimMiller]

just make sure you personally read the bids. I have had schools call me and we have a closed door meeting of the bids, and some companys try to short change on products or change out brands, saying they are almost the same.

 

[midgetgreen11]

just make sure you personally read the bids. I have had schools call me and we have a closed door meeting of the bids, and some companys try to short change on products or change out brands, saying they are almost the same.

Yes, I read the first bid that came in, they wanted $400 for a 17" flatscreen lcd monitor.

I have a 17" monitor at home that i can bring in for my use.

 

[Sayen]

I have that problem. Lots of companies see state contracts and get a little excited. Worst for me is that bids have to come from approved vendors, which means no Internet companies like Musician's Friend.

 

[Darthrob13]

Since the question was asked on the last page about laptop login to a Palette or LightPalette series console.

Yes. Anyone with a laptop, the OLE (which is a free download) and some sort of ethernet connection can hook up to the console in a video only mode, a remote mode or in a tracking backup mode (for the last one to work there has to be a channel authorization on the laptop).

The really nice part is that multiple people can be logged in at once...so the designer and the programmer can sit next to each other...on second thought.....

 

[thommyboy]

Worst for me is that bids have to come from approved
vendors, which means no Internet companies like Musician's Friend.

The upside to working with the approved vendors is that you then have a company to work with if/when there is a problem. It is hard to get someone from a website to come out and service the equipment.
Not that it saves you from the danger of getting gouged on service.

 

[len]

I have that problem. Lots of companies see state contracts and get a little excited. Worst for me is that bids have to come from approved vendors, which means no Internet companies like Musician's Friend.

IIRC, Musician's Friend is the internet arm of Sam Ash. My experience is that you can do better, price-wise.

As for sending it out to bid, where did I hear that before?

You mentioned high school students so I'm assuming it's going into a public school. Since it's a $2K+ capital expense, isn't there some bid process that needs to be followed? In my area anything over $1K+ needs a list of product requirements and written bids from at least 3 vendors.

 

[derekleffew]

len, two snaps! and now for the reason for the post

Everyone, support your local vendor (brick and mortar stores)! Even if their price is higher, they are going to be there for you when you need them, and the Internet vendor is not. There are many good (and some bad) reasons government bids have preferred vendor clauses.

Sure it's great to use pricegrabber or nextag to check prices on an item, but at least allow the local vendor a chance to match or beat the price you find online.
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/members/len.html

 

[Sayen]

It depends on what you're buying. Musician's Friend was on my mind because I used to be able to purchase cheap XLR cable there, among other expendables. Service items I usually purchase locally, to avoid shipping if I have service problems.

My local Strand rep charges $25 to look at a console and diagnose problems. The district vendor, also local, charges $200.

 

[TimMiller]

Am I the only company that part of the install at schools and churches includes a support contract, along with on hands training classes. I have had teachers just ask me to teach their entire class along with them on how to use a console. The contract normally has about 8-16 training hours included. So i can rotate out the class so its not a bunch of people crowded around a console. We also offer free 24/7 tech support. So if there is a problem they can reach us, and most of the time we can even come out there last minute and on weekends including sunday. We get lots of shows just because we answer the phone on saturdays and sundays when every one else is getting answering machines.

 

[Sayen]

Am I the only company that part of the install at schools and churches includes a support contract, along with on hands training classes. I have had teachers just ask me to teach their entire class along with them on how to use a console. The contract normally has about 8-16 training hours included. So i can rotate out the class so its not a bunch of people crowded around a console. We also offer free 24/7 tech support. So if there is a problem they can reach us, and most of the time we can even come out there last minute and on weekends including sunday. We get lots of shows just because we answer the phone on saturdays and sundays when every one else is getting answering machines.

You might be! Our lighting install was by a major company, but their service is so-so, and the tech, while a nice guy, belongs to a much older generation of lighting equipment. He has to be flown in, and takes most of my questions back to his office to find answers.

Our audio installers specialize in fire alarms, not audio. I've left several calls for help on their service line answering machine which still haven't been returned, months later. They overcharged by about 60% for equipment, and did a poor install. Unfortunately, as the dumb teacher, I don't know as much about theatrical technology as a district official.

 

[jmabray]

Am I the only company that part of the install at schools and churches includes a support contract, along with on hands training classes. I have had teachers just ask me to teach their entire class along with them on how to use a console. The contract normally has about 8-16 training hours included. So i can rotate out the class so its not a bunch of people crowded around a console. We also offer free 24/7 tech support. So if there is a problem they can reach us, and most of the time we can even come out there last minute and on weekends including sunday. We get lots of shows just because we answer the phone on saturdays and sundays when every one else is getting answering machines.

Nope you are definitely not the only company that does this, just one of the shrinking list that does.

 

[gafftaper]

I've gotten to know the bidding process well. Here's how it works in the state... your's will be similar but definitely have differences. If a purchase is over $3300 we must get bids from 3 different vendors. If a purchase is over $42,000 then it must go to widely publicized blind sealed bid process.

Bidding is all about specifications. You must find detailed functional differences that set your console apart from EVERY other console on the market. If a piece of crap Chinese console on E-bay meets your specifications then it will win the bid over the other two bids for Ion and you will BE FORCED to purchase the Chinese crap.

For example I wanted to purchase Source Four lighting instruments. How do you write a specification of functional differences that will result in the selection of a S4 over an SL, Shakes, or the going to be sued Lightronics clone? Well the good news is most manufacturers post specifications on their websites for their products. If they don't post them you can contact the company and ask for them. These specifications are written to carefully match their product. In this case the magic feature is the HPL lamp. If you specify it must be able to use an HPL lamp then no other vendor qualifies and they must all bid S4's.

One other interesting item is vendors under state contract. You may find this rule in effect. Some companies are allowed to set up contracts with the state. I have an electronics company I've been dealing with that is able to purchase sound gear for me. Under the state contract they agreed to sell things to me at cost+ 5% with free shipping. That's a killer deal on sound gear. There are not state contract purchasing agreements in every state and they don't exist for every type of purchase so this may not help.

In conclusion as much as I would like to support my local vendor, with the state laws it can be very difficult to actually do that. I got bids from my local vendor but they were beat out 80% of the time by the bigger out of state dealers. Nothing you can do, state law says you have to do it this way.

Then your state may also have some crazy women and minority business rules. Until just recently in our state this was the process. They took all the bids and organized them in order of total price. If there was a Woman or minority owned business within 10% of the lowest bid that business got the bid even if 20 others beat their price. I don't remember how it worked from there but there was another step before they went back to the cheapest bidder. They got rid of it a few years back here but who knows what sort of crazy rules there may be in your state.

Call your school district's purchasing department and ask them, what rules apply in your situation for an approximately $4k purchase. Also be sure to ask how you can help with the specification process before the purchase. BE SURE YOU GET YOUR HANDS ON THOSE SPECS BEFORE THEY GO TO BID... unless you want one of these.

 

[len]

Of course, in Illinois the main criteria is how much money the vendor has contributed to the proper campaign funds, or how many shoe boxes full of cash will be included in delivery of the item.

See also: Blagojevich, Rod
Powell, Paul
Ryan, George
Rezko, Tony
Silver Shovel
et al

 

[Sayen]

I wish I'd met Gafftaper several years ago, instead of learning all of that the hard way. Only thing I'd add is that in my state I can specify a product when I do bids, so I can say S-4 or equivalent, which means spec'ing it the way he describes. On the upside I can do my own bids in my state, which usually means finding the local vendor that I like and listing their price, and then looking up two companies online and printing out their price list. The money people at the district like it when you do the legwork for them sometimes.