Control/Dimming Purchasing a New Console

[SteveB]

so I can say S-4 or equivalent, which means spec'ing it the way he describes.

The State of NY uses the term "Equipment shall be by ETC, or Approved Equal", as example, with a qualifier that the folks approving shall be a representitive of the theater as well as the purchasing agent, or some such.

I find that I can head-off-at-the-pass a lot of issues related to equipment from companies less desirable, by giving the purchasing office a list of vendors that are authorized dealers of the equipment you want to purchase, rather then letting them find companies like Musicians Friend, etc...

It also helps to make the case for equipment that needs to be compatible with other existing equipment in the district/facility, to allow ease of training, etc... or that the supplier must maintain a repair and service facility within XX miles of the district/facility.

SB

 

[Sayen]

Most of what NYC schools do makes me jealous. AZ is sort of the armpit of the educational world.

Compatibility - great idea! Since those who approve my paperwork don't know the differences in theater gear, this could be a huge help.

 

[cutlunch]

The ION seems a little out of our range in that it operates moving lights, which we will never have, and it has no submasters without adding an $840 fader wing, which with high school students is almost essential, and is much better for "busking" as they call it.

Ben please don't take this the wrong way but you cannot say after you have left whether your school will have moving lights.

So if you make purchasing recommendations based on this idea then I feel you might be shortchanging future students.

As you are obviously so well respected by your school adminsitration to be involved in this process I would like to suggest you use this oppurtunity to advance things at your school.

At some stage in the future some drama teacher will want to use moving lights even if they hire them. Not having a moving light board means hiring another board.

Also I can see in 2-3 years the price of LED lighting will come down to the point for some uses it will be more economical to buy LED instead of incandescent lights. I am thinking of Cyc lights in particular they can be hung and forgotten. No gels, no bulbs etc also with the new energy effeceint ligthing regulations LED maybe the way of the future. Although LED's will work on conventional boards you loose some of the added features.

Also when purchasing your next board you need to think how long it will be in use. For a school I would be looking at least ten years for a working life.

Yes schools want to spend the least money they can but if you give them a logical reasoned arguement as to why the pricier board is better value for money then they often listen.

For example if some of the boards let you buy more channels to add on later that might be a better option then a board with a fixed number of channels that has to be replaced if you need more channels. In some cases schools can get money for upgrades easier then new purchases.

Future proofing is always a good arguement such as getting a better board eg moving lights capabilities. This capibility is better for students to learn on. Most schools don't want to deliberately handicap their students learning.

So you see you have to a wider vision when purchasing something for a school.

But please don't take my comments personally I think you have made some very insightfull comments about the different boards and have put a lot of effort into this.

But sometimes it can be we are to close to see the big picture. Like the tourist in New York who asks a passerby how to find the Empire State Building to be told " You are standing next to it."

 

[midgetgreen11]

The issue with your thinking cut_lunch, is that if I don't keep the board in a limited price range the school will say, "No, you can't have it at all then."

 

[cutlunch]

Ben I see what you mean but I don't mean you only ask for one option.

When a lot of companies quote to supply something they don't normally provide just one option in the quote. They provide a range of options. They know they won't always get the most expensive option they present but at least they have made people aware of it.

So what I am saying is when you present your report give them more then one option.

Option 1 maybe outside the price range but by listing the extra advantages of it you at least make them think about it.
But make option 1 still realistic eg don't ask for 1000 channels if you only currently have only 48 etc

Option 2 should be the best you can get and just fit in the price range. This is the one you can live with if you don't get option 1. It's a balancing act between making option 2 look alright at the same time giving a gentle nudge towards option 1.

You don't know when they look at option 1 they may say I can't afford that option this year but if I wait one year and combine my budget I can get it. It is nice to get a thing now but if you can get a much better unit next year isn't the wait worth it.

I know a teacher who brought a new board for the school but with the budget he had the board wasn't big enough to run the lighting for the main shows. So they had to run the old board and the new board together. The operator had to use two cue buttons. I don't if he could have carried over the budget to the next year but he landed up with something that wouldn't do the job.

 

[thenelsontwins]

AHHH!

Not the Leprecon, you will regret it...

The other consoles are fine.

If you are looking at expandability the ION for sure, but if you're just needing a solid 'conventional desk' the Express or similar is a great way to go. Find a used one.

Bidding is scary if the people who pull the trigger are NOT YOU. In my work with the bid process is seek out what you want and get the price.

Then go to the most expensive places you can think of and get bids from them as well, this seems to work well. The admin sees the low bid and they bite.

Also, I never hesitated to stress the desperate nature of the situation REGARDLESS of the cost or need. Administrations, nearly 100% of the time don't understand what we do or need. I found that my best leverage was keeping them confused and in the dark. The less they understand the better. Oh, and scared. Personal injury was a favorite wild card. If we don't get 'x' then someone could lose an eye. Or similar.

If they have options, they will pick the cheapest...always. Especially if they don't 'understand' what you need. So blow their minds and only give them ONE model to choose from and enough info to feel like they kind of 'get' what you're talking about. Otherwise you'll end up with a NSI 12/24.

e

 

[Sayen]

My bid method within a school - find what you want, find a local vendor who provides service, and get a solid quote on the item. In the case of a console, get the specific configuration down. Let them know in advance that you have to bid this out, so you don't surprise them and waste their time if the district goes with another bidder.

Then, email some online vendors, or just look through online catalogs for list price. Unless your local vendor hates you, I can guarantee your quote will be cheaper.

Specify standards as well, especially to keep the item within the brand you want. For a S-4 ellipsoidal, for example, I can specify that the light needs to use an HPL lamp. No Shakespeares for us!

When I had in the bid I include a note that the local vendor also supplies local service, in addition to being cheaper. Across three districts now and I've never had trouble working with the money people. This is using my own funds of course, might be different if you're asking for money.

Get to know the purchasers too. They're much more likely to work with you if you talk to them personally, and you're not just a name in an email.

 

[icewolf08]

If you are looking at expandability the ION for sure, but if you're just needing a solid 'conventional desk' the Express or similar is a great way to go. Find a used one.

Do not do this under any circumstance! You won't save enough to make it worth buying what, in computer terms, is antique technology. Also, you want to get a console that will grow as you need it to, or at least will serve you well for the next 10 years or so. So, buying a used console, while the manufacturer may support it, is not the best idea because inevitably you are going to want it to do more than it ever could possibly do, whereas the new generation consoles are much more upgradeable and versatile.

 

[gafftaper]

I doubt a public institution would allow you to purchase a used product anyway. You sure can't do it in this state.

 

[thenelsontwins]

Need vs. expandability was my point here.

If you have no money but can afford an old standby 'traditional' desk go for it. Used/New, get what makes sense and what you can afford.

The idea of purchasing a highly expandable desk is totally worthless if they won't actually use its features. Think about what they really NEED not necessarily expandability.

If they will actually, in the next 3 to 5 years, buy a bunch of new equipment that necessitates the more modern desk, then get the more modern desk. Otherwise, don't buy a Mercedes when all you need is a Honda.

e

 

[icewolf08]

Need vs. expandability was my point here.

If you have no money but can afford an old standby 'traditional' desk go for it. Used/New, get what makes sense and what you can afford.

The idea of purchasing a highly expandable desk is totally worthless if they won't actually use its features. Think about what they really NEED not necessarily expandability.

If they will actually, in the next 3 to 5 years, buy a bunch of new equipment that necessitates the more modern desk, then get the more modern desk. Otherwise, don't buy a Mercedes when all you need is a Honda.

e

I don't think that your analogy to cars is accurate. No one NEEDS a Mercedes. The analogy is more like: do you buy an '84 Corolla or an '08? If you are going for bang for your buck, buying the new car is a much better deal. You get warranty coverage, you know that you are the first owner, you are going to get features like power windows & doors, a CD player, etc. Sure, you might nit ever use that fancy CD player, but just in case, it is there.

It doesn't matter if you are ever going to use all the features of one of the new generation consoles, there is just no sense in A) buying used gear that you have no idea how well it will function next year and has no warranty, and B) buying old technology.

You wouldn't go into a computer store today and buy a computer that runs Windows 95 just because it is cheaper. Sure, you can get on the internet with it, run office, print, email, and everything you might need to do, but that doesn't make it the best choice for you.

It doesn't matter if 90% of the time the only thing that the desk gets used for is a music teacher turning a submaster up for the concert. Almost any desk can do that. It is the other 10% of the time that matters. Students are going to be coming in more and more tech savvy as times goes on. In my opinion, it is worth it to have the ability to let the kids who are interested and dedicated to have the ability to learn on industry standard equipment. You don't need to have a single moving light or color scroller to make it worth buying an Ion or a Palette. Just because the desk has that functionality and you aren't using it doesn't mean that it is too advanced. It means that at some point some kid is going to walk in and say: "Hey, we could do XYZ" and then it will get used, and that student may become the next hot Broadway designer. Whereas if you install something that is years behind, and a royal PITA to operate you may turn that student off from progressing in the field.

The other major thing is that you want to own a desk that there is real support for. Sure, ETC will still fix your Microvision, but it isn't like you can just get a new motherboard for it, it has to all be built. It is even getting harder to find a floppy drive if you ever had to replace the one on your Express. With this new generation of consoles, spare/replacement parts will be on hand, software bugs will be able to be worked out, etc. Supporting a new console is going to be easier and more cost effective than supporting an old one.

I can't think of any argument for buying into outdated technology. The only guarantee that you will get with buying an outdated desk is that you will have to replace it sooner than you want to. From the cost analysis standpoint that makes little sense to do. Why buy a cheap fix now, when in 3-5 years you will need to buy something else. It is much more logical to buy a console that will last you 10+ years, that doesn't even cost double what the outdated one does.

 

[thenelsontwins]

I am not saying to buy the used console, what I am saying is if you don't have the money to drop, buy what you can afford. If that is a used desk, so be it.

I understand your point entirely, I was in academia a long time, but sometimes, the funds are not there no matter what 'vision' you have for the future. You get what you can.

If what you want is an express type console, then get one (or similar) the manufacturer is a moot point. Get the one you feel you need and can afford. If you can pitch an Ion and make them bite get an Ion. Limited funds means limited options.

 

[midgetgreen11]

Let me throw this out there. The console that was bought with the NEW HIGH SCHOOL upon its construction 8 years ago was an EDI Minstrel Lite 48/96.

That's why we're not getting an ION. Athletics is way more important, and we're in a two million dollar hole this year. We laid off the copy-room staff... the teachers actually have to copy their own papers now. Oh wait, the teachers told us on the first day yesterday that the school actually has no paper...

"We are NK!" We have no money.

 

[NickJones]

I cannot recomend enough the Strand 300. Or 500. They can do movers. like most consoles. But they are just great machines, simple. Yet complicated. And there isn;t much that i can see rong with them. They are hard to find second hand in Aus because everyone wants to keep theirs. But there is a Preset Pallet made by strand, simmilar to the Zero88 Jester. But this has little or no Mover support. And the Jester ML by Zero88 is pretty crappy. I myself have only briefly used a hog, but i hear nothing but praise. Although this is more of a mover console. Personally, if you want to have lots of normal luminairs, and only a few movers the strand 300 would be ideal, follewed by the Jester ML.
its Strand Lighting - A Philips Group Brand for strand and Zero 88 Lighting. Lighting Control Systems for Entertainment, Stage, Film, Television, Theatre, Schools and Drama for the jester.
Good Luck

 

[Darthrob13]

But there is a Preset Pallet made by strand, simmilar to the Zero88 Jester. But this has little or no Mover support.
Good Luck

....?

While it's true that it doesn't have encoders it most certainly supports movers. In fact, every feature available to users of the LightPalette sersis is available....it's the same software.

While I agree the lack of encoders is an issue, this will soon be rectified.