Vintage Lighting Reconditioning 407 + 412 - Substitute part questions?

Grey

Member
Hi all,

I've searched the forum, and through the internet, talked to the Mole-Richardson guys - Haven't really gotten a firm answer to pursue the projects.

I have two 407 1k's and a 412 5k that I want to clean up and change out the lamp base and lead assembly, perhaps the switches.

With regards to the 407's - I picked them up for 50 bucks a piece from a friend - the globes are good, power cord had been converted to an edison (SOOW?), everything else is good.

One of them works, the other doesn't turn on (could be switch, could be lead assembly - I'm too ignorant to know). I'm aware of the asbestos hazard in the wiring, and have taken precautions, spoken to John (repair) and Alex (engineer) at MR. I'm looking to take out all of the asbestos (tape around lens and lead assembly), and was wondering if anyone knew of suitable substitutes for the "Guts" instead of ordering them retail from MR. The Socket 407-228/9 is 42.00, Lead assembly 407-235 is 35.00, and the Switch 400-16 is 19.95. - I don't want to turn a $100 deal into a $300 project.

So far I've come up with a G22 socket - none of the retailers seem to sell them with leads - The leads are the hard part, I've found things I've heard are suitable - 14 Gauge TGGT and others. But I haven't been able to find someone to sell me small quantities of this stuff. Only 100' spools. I've checked the lighting stores around chicago, Grainger, Home Depot, even a restaurant appliance repair store (which did have high temp wire, but it is fairly nondescript, and I'm not sure it'll work.

If someone could provide me with a concrete answer on a safe way to make this work, I would really appreciate it.

I'd be happy to put up pictures, pending any response.

As for the 412, I'm thinking of gutting the whole thing and using the housing to put a strobe in. I have a friend who runs a foundry and does metal + Steel fabrication for a living. Essentially, I want to turn the 412 housing into this
I have a pretty good idea on how to do it, I just want to be safe with any cutting we do with regards to the paint and other hazards.

Please be kind, and if I come off less ignorant than I am - please be understanding that this not my specialty and I could use a tiny bit of hand holding; so I approach the altar humbly.

Thanks,
Grey
 
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[
... change out the lamp base ...
Socket. Socket. Socket. Everyone, say it with me, please. "The base is part of the lamp." Though you will hear others (even many professionals) say it, each and every one of them is wrong, wrong, wrong. The lamp burner is the socket. A lamp's base has pins, fins, prongs, posts, or contacts. One can't change out a base without changing the lamp. :twisted:]

Grey, welcome to the booth. You've certainly come to the right place. Send a PM to our member ship. He does this sort of thing each and every day. He's converted big Fresnels into different lamp types, strobes, LEDs, all sorts of interesting projects, for names you'd recognize. And he's in the very far western Chicagoland suburbs.

Here's one of his treatises, much of which should be applicable to your projects:
Lighting Fixture Maintenance - ControlBooth .

... I don't want to turn a $100 deal into a $300 project. ...
I understand that, but seeing as how the 407 goes new for almost $600, and the 412 for almost $900, I think you'd still be way ahead. Now a theatre person would never spend that much for a 1K or 2K Fresnel, but apparently the TV/film people will and do.

I currently have a Mole 5K Fresnel on my work table, I”m changing it into a prop light that houses 3x Pixel Pup LED lights. Gee, some advanced notice will have been nice - this given it got where I work yesterday and leaves Friday. This in addition to a very busy schedule, I hope I can replace the broken off gel frame clip on time. On the other hand the fixture came with a full set of screens to it, barn door, tweko mounts and what seems to me a first era type DPY halogen lamp. Very much different than any modern DPY lamp, and not incandescent. Just got added to my wall of shame. On the other hand, as very common to old Mole Fresnels, yep, had asbestos wiring and a broken lamp base - them are not cheap. Also normal to such fixtures is an asbestos tape around the lens, a possible need to replace the bearing on the yoke cam, a need to replace the yoke cam pad and oil the heck out of all fittings and especially pivots. After that, should work perfect. They are tanks and it doesn’t matter how old it is.

Biggest problem with such a fixture is in the lamp base. Even if the more recent porcelain type that doesn’t break as easily as the pressed fiber type at times with an asbestos pad, your sockets are often toast. Easy enough to clean them up in re-surfacing with a dremmel tool and special deoxidant or electrical cleaner/lubricant but most often what you get used is toast and needs good attention. 75% of the time, the porcelain brackets that hold the lamp base are broken however, expect to pay for new ones. The lamp base type is unique to Mole Richardson though I have seen this part with a Warner Brothers stamp on it also which is just as good. Good concept for retaining the lamp though at times there will be a steel/aluminum corrosion problem in the thumb screw assembly for retaining the lamp. Replace such parts such as the bolt with a stainless steel or grade 8 one and that will go away. Make friends with TriFlo lubricant, good Teflon oil for all assorted parts or joints in the fixture. Replace what screws are corroded or rusting also. Oil only helps so much. Most likely necessary to replace all wiring, crimps and terminal nuts/washers. Replace the wiring with 250c TGGT wiring inside the fixture - any good cable supplier or McMaster will stock or be able to get it. Replace all crimp terminals if wiring is replaced with high temperature ring terminals that have fiberglass electrical tape over the crimp, and replace all nuts, washers and lock washers as necessary or not looking in good condition with brass or silicone bronze nuts or washers. Don’t use normal hardware or crimps, nor under 250c wire inside a 5K or larger fixture.

Mole Mauve as a spray paint is available thru Mole Richardson or any distributer that can get their gear. It’s advisable to use it both for high temp. and color match. Most likely you will need to clean the fixture really well and scrape and sand anything that’s coming up if it is. Paint the bottom also, it shouldn’t be silver.

Painting isn’t a bad thing if you plan on using the fixture. Keeps steel parts from rusting & aluminum parts from corroding due to conditions and heat. Also looks better and good looking gear gets more care to it than gear that looks like it don’t matter how many times it bumps the ladder on the way up.

For the most part this type of fixture will have been replaced by the soft light, but given frosted lamps & perhaps some frosted gel to boot, should make a nice wash light. Can even buy some Mogul screw to medium screw adaptors and lamp it down, or use 300w mog screw lamps in it.

While shopping, you might get a baby spud to C-Clamp adaptor to hang it from. Such would be available from Mole or Altman or most other movie lighting companies. This will allow you to hang it from a C-Clamp. Hang it from a heavy duty C-Clamp, Mole fixtures are heavy. Otherwise a Gr.5 hex bolt 1/2-13x4.1/2" with USS washer and spring lock washer when using a T-5700 Doughty clamp will work, or a standard half cheseborough with a similar length of alloy grade 1/2-13x4.1/2" socket head flat head screw would work in it.

Get a chain or 3/16" wire rope safety cable also, a bit more heavy than you want for a stock 1/8" wire rope unless Euro style that uses thimbles such as available thru Robe. That rope with dog clip on it is for hanging the cable or latching onto gel frame or barn door not a safety cable. Most likely it’s fine but might need replacement.

The “high temp rubber” cable off the back of the fixture is normal 90c type SO wire and not high temperature. It’s common to use extra heavy duty cable feeding power to such a fixture given the wiring area is separate and away from the heat. This said, check the condition of the cable feeding the light for dry rot, should be able to read the markings in brand, gauge and type on the cable & it should have not cuts. Cut the whip down to six feet - this way if there is a problem as standard practice in an emergency you can just unplug it. Check inside the fixture also to look at the cable. First it should be grounded - often the ground wire bolted to a mounting screw for the switch, second that it’s not heat damaged within the wireway. Shouldn’t be brittle or discolored. Easy enough to replace as needed.

Pound that ding out of the rear of the fixture - looks bad and won’t help it’s looks. Check the tightness of all screws holding it together. Don’t persay remove them unless necessary, but they want to be tight. Should they be really loose or corroded, clean and oil, add a lock washer and thread locker or replace and add threadlocker. Zinc for most parts on the fixture in screws is fine though stainless steel is better all around for high temperature and especially for any steel to aluminum connections.

As above, your internal wiring and lamp base are probably toast (your photo shows different for at least a really good clean lamp base). In the wiring you could use SF-2 wire of at least 16ga feeding the lamp bases. TGGT would also be fine. Feeding the fixture you need at least 12ga type SOOW cable. Again with the above high temperature ring terminals, grounding, high temperature fiberglass electrical tape over the crimps and replacing as needed from lamp base to nuts/washers as needed. Most likely your switches are just fine and look good by the photo. Very rare they go bad in such a fixture. The purpose of the switches is to switch off one or both lamps without unplugging. Remember for a movie shoot, dimmers are not much used. Want to dim the light, switch off a lamp. Want to un-plug and move, switch it off first. For stage usage, it’s ok to bypass and even remove the switch - often done - nothing more frustrating than the rig in the air and finding out someone flipped a switch by mistake, this after walking the truss with a replacement lamp.

Should you bypass the switch, while code says nothing large enough to fit a finger thru should be a hole into the wiring area large enough to stick a finger into, I wouldn’t plate up the switch hole - this would destroy the original antique fixture. Leave the switches where they are, there is enough room around them for your splices. You should knock out seal plug any extra holes for the wiring if there was extra single conductor holes cut but for the switches consider them protected enough. High temperature crimp a butt splice the SO cable to the heat wire, than wrap it in fiberglass electrical tape. Otherwise Ideal sells some high temperature set screw wire nuts for connecting from cord to dual switch. You would want some eight gauge ferrules to first insert the wire into before using such a set screw wire nut, but this would be acceptable for making the splice. Put a band of fiberglass electrical tape around such wires 1" from the wire nut to act as strain relief and hold together the wires. All of these parts are McMaster Carr of course.

IF the fixture is not grounded, you need to make it so. Often the best place for this is near the switch or lamp base mount. IN this case one of the screws holding the switch should be sufficient to do a ground to. Again with lock washers and replacing bolts if bad. For a ground, zinc plated steel hardware if fine.

Photo of your lamp base looks like it’s in good condition, at very least on that one, hit it with a set of brass wire wheels or fine silicone fiber abrasive wheels for the Dremmel tool and clean them up, than coat them in the above high temperature deoxidant or electrical contact cleaner/lubricant. Check screw terminal etc. this given the asbestos wiring needs to go. The switch type is what I though it was - normally bullet proof and not to be replaced. Once in a while some of it’s circuit board like mounting plates if used will go bad, and guess what is the replacement for such a circuit board type material? Contact cleaner at most is all that’s needed. Replace the screw to the switch, add a external tooth lock washer both brass or silicone bronze, replace the wiring and that’s all you might need to worry about. This besides the insulator pad under the lamp base if one is used. Often that’s asbestos also. McMaster sells a ceramic fiber 2" tape in various thicknesses which works as a really good replacement.

After the repairs - lots more details... just inspect any bad lamp every time you replace it. If corroded, pitted or showing especially on it’s center of lamp base contact damage, pull the fixture from service and give attention to the lamp base pitting due to bad contact. Once a year pull the fixture from service, inspect it’s base and wiring, oil what’s needed and all should be good to go.
Should be a great dependable fixture.

Final note, the bearing in the yoke clutch and the fiber clutch pad might need replacement also. Try oiling up the bearing to see if it can be saved but if toast, it’s either thru Mole for the ½" shaft, 1" OD and I believe ½" thick bearing or a special order thru McMaster and waiting a few weeks but they can also supply it. Worth it as with cleaning, tapping and oiling all yoke hardware. The fiber pad you can cut yourself out of various types of high temp low friction materials or buy. Graphite is often used as with other materials. On the opposing side of the yoke mounting is going to be either a shoulder bolt or a hex bolt with lock washer, washer and a conduit like sleeve. If this hex bolt has a “R” stamped on it, it’s I believe origional to the fixture, re-tap, oil and don’t replace it. Otherwise I would go with an appropriate shoulder bolt. Thread locker what ever the end result is necessary in this area and this is the side you want the safety cable on.

IF gel frames and safety screens came with the fixture, cool. Otherwise it should be easy enough to fabricate some. Gel frames can be welded out of thick banding material, this hinged with a piano hinge or left two pieces. Might drill holes in it and do some thin gauge tie wire in a 3" support for the gel or it will sag or burn. Beyond this, you must safety screen such a open faced fixture - this if used at anything over like 150w. To do this, do a gel frame with 1/2" hardware cloth or 1" chicken wire welded or rivited between. Very important the safety screen. This or safety coated / dipped lamps.
 
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Hmm... I can in local in asking advise on how to fix and make safe do that for you if you bring it to me with you in doing most of the work. This for free in making it work correctly parts and training in you doing most of the work - teach someone to fish type of thing. PM that request in requesting a visit to me for training. Doesn't cost anything to teach or in materials that is scrap, but in a trip to Chicago today, my distant remote from it location leaves me less stressed every year since I lived there. Really... it's only been like 10 years since I lived in Wicker Park, and every year since, I have been less comfortable in traveling to the city.

Enjoy working on fixtures and especially the teaching. Materials... got enogh raw materials for most projects to donate, and for others, can be saved normally in teaching how to fix. Parts otherwise needed you can provide or are normal costings for them.

Not a business and specifically not that, I am a salary employee and only doing old lighting gear for the corporate museum and for corporate outreach. Hey.. perhaps one might buy lamps or gaff tape from us type stuff. Or if your dimmers go out... stuff. I don't do a sales add for who to buy from for lamps and expendables. Some know others don't. Not really that pushed market that I could were I not busy push. My point in being on-line is not for sales thus only those points in tech where useful.
 
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Thanks for the warm welcome, gentlemen. I really appreciate you taking the time - this definitely is the information I've been looking for.

Now a theatre person would never spend that much for a 1K or 2K Fresnel
I think theatre folks and I might just understand each other! There aren't many used MR goodies out on craigslist Chicago, but every once in a while...

He does this sort of thing each and every day. He's converted big Fresnels into different lamp types, strobes, LEDs, all sorts of interesting projects, for names you'd recognize. And he's in the very far western Chicagoland suburbs.

I'll be sending ship a message soon, thanks for the reference, Derek.

There's another fellow out here, in the south suburbs I believe - named Devon Reno - it sounds like he's the "ship" of the strobe world. Maybe they're one in the same and my information is incorrect. Really interesting guy with all sorts of amazing ideas on high power lighting.

Ship,
I'm sending you a pm now...I'd be humbled to come train.

Thank you both,
Grey
 
A Ship of the strobe world would not be a Ship. PM's out there in chat but Ship don't do strobes other than buying lamps for them. (Really talking about me in third person now? There is no legend.. just a simple tech person.) Tongue and cheek of course - if tasked to mount one in a fixture I would, than save the gizzards. Boxes of 10K, 5K thru 1K Mole gizzards to prop lights I can return back to proper. And in doing modifications to Mole fixtures, I have spent especial care over the years so as to ensure they can be returned back to factory specification. Just a me thing though in taking care over barbaric hack work I often see done to gear. Did your really have to... type stuff you will find done.

Checked my PM recently and offered the help, than asked what fixtures are we talking about tonight in being similar tech people in base? Reading this post for the first time yea, I probably have a bigger stock of #60036 Mole Maroon spray paint and parts to Mole lights than anyone else in the area. Most of what is old including insulator pads are probably the case including the lamp socket pads for asbestos, but often if treated can be left in-tact. Lamp sockets in general - once Altman for their studio Fresnels discontinued their lamp socket for most studio Fresnels without replacement - this did teach me how to resurface such things a lot which got me into other socket type re-surfacing. Photos way back in the website in posting about the G-38 style socket resurfacing.

Granted in my single car condo garage, I currently have six copies of c.1928 era 6" PC fixtures and with them I'm getting really close to done, a six month process, there is time to be found to fix other gear as with work needs to make right away, this as long as the weather lasts for anyone that wants to make the 60 to 80 mile trip for learning that's free. Sorry but, here I'm set up for service of fixture in general and more comfortable in doing the fix by way of tools and spare parts.

For me next up is the six Bantam Superspots that are sand blasted and ready to work on in inventing various parts for them, than what I get in trade from Jacksonville State University for antiques duplicate exchange next month, and above that, what I need to fabricate and wire up for work. Still though, teaching someone to fish is worth a few hours lost on long term projects unless I have a deadline at work.

Folks in the Western Northern Illinois area and from other states are welcome as long as I don't have to put you up - and expect eight hours and winter coming not prime time to do so. But yea, I'll give my free time and for the most part materials up for education to those interested.
 
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In Praise of Ship - Training from a Master

Hi all,

As if his expertise isn't evident enough -
I wanted to take a bit to relay my experience training for a day with Ship on the repair, lamping down, and reconditioning of a few old MR fixtures. (I'll post pics soon).
Not only was Ship kind enough to respond to my neophytic question about the fixtures in the first place, he offered a day of electronics training and proper instruction.
The tasks at hand were -
  • Asbestos abatement, switch replacement, and reconditioning of (2) 407 1k's
  • Asbestos abatement, reconditioning, and lamping down of (1) 412 5k to a 2k in the same chassis.
As soon as I pulled up to the workspace and pulled the fixtures out of my truck we got to work. We ripped apart the 5k, and wearing proper clothing and masks, went to work. We did the following
  • Asbestos Abatement
    • Replaced the asbestos covering on the retaining ring behind the lens with 3m Fiberglass tape
      • Replaced tape around lens with strip n stick high temp orange
    • Replaced the 5k asbestos socket with a 2k socket and appropriate block to account for height differential
      • Refinished contacts with dremel and silicone fiber wheel
      • Showed how to find signs of arcing
  • Replaced lead assembly and switch
  • Reconditioned Chassis and moving parts
    • Sanded and repainted chassis with high temp paint (Mole Maroon on outside, BBQ black on inside)
    • Lubricated flood/spot arm w/ high temp dry lube
    • Reconditioned screws and retapped holes
    • Lubricated and reconditioned hardware on barndoors
    • Sanded/Repainted barndoors
  • Added 5/8 stud and vertical base w/ thread for mounting of strobe head
  • Cleaned and polished alzak reflector
  • Changed out the whip for a 12/3 SOOW w/ edison plug
  • Did most of the same with the 1k's
I can't emphasize enough how much I truly didn't know prior to this -
My limited recanting of what we did is a testament to the wealth of knowledge and expertise Ship has. If you're going to learn, learn the right way. That being said - I'd recommend training with him to anyone (especially in the Midwest.)

I'll try to post pics soon, currently in the middle of another project. If there are any questions or things I can flesh out further, let me know.
-Grey
 

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