Replacing our conventional fixture down wash with LED

[DLam]

I am looking to replace our conventional fixture down wash in our local theatre. I have a throw of approx. 12' from grid to stage and I’m looking to wash a 28'x28' stage with 9 LED fixtures (if possible). Any recommendations for what might work in my application? Any assistance you could offer would be greatly appreciated. I don't want a super cheap fixture, I have about $600-$800 to spend per unit.

 

[DaveySimps]

I relocated this thread the Lighting Forum so it is posted in the proper place.

Welcome to Controlbooth! I hope you enjoy your time here with us.

~Dave

 

[Jay Ashworth]

My snap reaction is that's an awful lot of area for that small a fixture count at a 12' trim, but I might be wrong.

 

[jglodeklights]

At only 12' from grid to stage, a 28'x28' stage is gonna be difficult to cover with only 9 fixtures. You're looking at 9' spacing, which is going to require about a 70* Beam Angle or so to achieve an at even wash at that height. Basically a 6" Fresnel at full flood. Most LED fixtures come with 16* to 30* lenses fitted. Diffusing them with gel isn't necessarily a solution because you'll lose a lot of output to get them even. There are a few Zoom PAR style ones, but they cost about twice your budget. ETC's Desire series can be fitted with lenses that will diffuse them to the correct size, but are significantly higher priced than you are looking for. There are some companies, I'm not certain of their names, maybe someone else remembers who they are, that make generic diffusion lenses designed to work with LED instruments to increase the size of the beam, but without killing the output as badly as just gelling them will.

 

[derekleffew]

... There are some companies, I'm not certain of their names, maybe someone else remembers who they are, that make generic diffusion lenses designed to work with LED instruments to increase the size of the beam, but without killing the output as badly as just gelling them will.

The primary supplier is a company called Luminit: http://www.luminitco.com/products/light-shaping-diffusers . I don't think they sell direct to the end-user, only to manufacturers.

And I agree, 9 luminaire s lighting a 28'x28' space with a 12' throw distance is a tall order (pun intended). LED fixtures with colorframe holders are inherently more expensive, for no apparent reason that I can see. It can't be the cost of the gelframe clips. Plus, the wider angles may introduce unwanted/uncontrollable spill (tophat s/ barndoor s don't work so good on LEDs). Nine 70 degree Source Four LED Series II Lustr may be just the ticket, if not for that pesky budget issue.

Plan on 16 or 25 fixtures, even if you have to lower your standards. Assuming this is arena staging. If proscenium, there may be other options.

 

[dj41354]

Would these be a possibility? https://www.rosco.com/lighting/mirocube4c.cfm?menuReturn=lighting
They come standard with a lens set that includes a 60 degree flood. MSPR is $875, but I think you can get them for less than that.

 

[SteveB]

I am looking to replace our conventional fixture down wash in our local theatre. I have a throw of approx. 12' from grid to stage and I’m looking to wash a 28'x28' stage with 9 LED fixtures (if possible). Any recommendations for what might work in my application? Any assistance you could offer would be greatly appreciated. I don't want a super cheap fixture, I have about $600-$800 to spend per unit.

$600-$800 is cheap for quality. You can get an Elation Opti Quad Par for $800, gives you RGBW in a fixture with a color frame holder. Elation makes a beam shaping filter of some sort, so does City Theatrical and ETC (for their Selador gear). As with many LED PAR type heads, the initial beam angles are incredibly narrow, the Elation is 10 degrees, thus a LOT of diffusion capability is needed with a resulting large fall off of intensity to work in the space you've described.

As well, none of the less expensive LED heads work well as area lighting on faces, you need to step up to the ETC gear if that's important. RGBW won''t even do tints well in general so you have to think thru the intended use.

Part of the issue is if you are doing "theatre" as opposed to "rock and roll", the color producing capability of the fixture becomes very important. Typical R&R gear is not able to produce as refined a color palette. If you are only looking for basic RGB, plus indigo, pink, an amber or orange, etc... and are not into the nuances of needing an R34 instead of L110, then a less expensive fixture can work. If not, and refinement is desired, then the Selador ETC line is the way to go.

 

[DLam]

Thank you all for the input. It is a theatrical setting but mostly kid shows and community theatre. Designers and directors are not as picky as in a larger more professional space. That being said I still want something functional. All very good feedback that I will take into consideration when I make a choice. Cheers!

 

[Jay Ashworth]

For what it's worth, you might look into the Chinese RGBA fixtures; at $150 a piece, you can install a bunch more of those for downwash. Or, slightly more upmarket, something like the Hotbox. Those are available, I believe, in RGBA, RGBW, and RGBW+UV (I would prefer RGBA+UV, but they don't make that; I'm told the RGBAs are more tractable, color wise, than the RGBWs).

 

[SteveB]

Jay,

As the OP stated. the units are at +12 ft above deck. The space is 28x28 ft. which called for a very wide spread unit, or the ability to handle diffusion. I suspect the OP dos not desire having to tape Lee 228 all over the units. If you know of Chinese LED's or something similarly priced that have a 60 degree spread, I'd like to know as well, as typically they are between 10 and 20, sometimes out to 35 but rarely wider.

 

[Jay Ashworth]

Steve: was "a bunch more" not clear enough?

I assume his 3x3 grid was based on cost... when they're $150, you can buy a whole lot more...

Sent from my SPH-L720

 

[Brandofhawk]

I've worked in spaces that use elation's event panel as their light. They might be worth looking into for what you are looking to do. I think they are around $600.

Top light will give you the least amount of throw distance, another option might be to use them as back light or side light. It will increase your throw distance and decrease the amount of fixtures you'd need to fill the stage. It will also decrease the total output which may be an issue against standard stage lights.

Another issue among the cheaper units are really the quality. You will have more dead units, units that die sooner than later etc. There is also a level of color difference in the manufacturing process. I know in the early days of LED you used to have to send the 6' color blasts back into the factory to get color matched parts to fix them. It's not so noticeable onstage, but it is super noticeable across the cyc. I don't know if this is an issue for high end units anymore, but it probably is still for the lower end stuff.

 

[SteveB]

Steve: was "a bunch more" not clear enough?

I assume his 3x3 grid was based on cost... when they're $150, you can buy a whole lot more...

Sent from my SPH-L720

Perfectly clear. Hang 4 times as many fixtures all of tight beam spreads to make up the coverage.

Does that really make sense to you ?, doesn't to me. Even if they had the room to load up all that gear.

Part of the issue is the focus point is not at the deck, it's probably 5 ft up, so the beams need to spread enough at a 7 ft. throw.

Sounds like a wash/light box full out flood unit to me.

 

[JChenault]

Perfectly clear. Hang 4 times as many fixtures all of tight beam spreads to make up the coverage.

Does that really make sense to you ?, doesn't to me. Even if they had the room to load up all that gear.

Part of the issue is the focus point is not at the deck, it's probably 5 ft up, so the beams need to spread enough at a 7 ft. throw.

Sounds like a wash/light box full out flood unit to me.

Well

If the OP wants to use LED fixtures for downlight in a 28' square space with a grid at 12', using 36 fixtures is probably about the right number. My back of the envelope calculation is that 36 units with a 45 degree spread would work reasonably well. ( a fixture every 6' 9" )

I would not go super wide angle as the spill becomes not terribly controllable, and the angle would change radically as the actors walk through the space.