RF Bandpass filters?

manuallyfocused

Active Member
I'm looking for ways to improve wireless performance with our RF mics, and the technical support from RF Venue suggested adding their 470-560mhz bandpass filters to help negate interference from T-Mobile and TV stations in the upper 500s, where we've had some issues (we use RF Venue's Distro4 units to split out our antennas to a bit of a hodgepodge of Shure and Sennheiser receivers). Most of our wireless falls into the 470-560 range (Sennheiser A, AW+, and Shure G50), but we have one Shure ULXD4Q unit in the H50 range (534-598), so we'd be losing about half of the spectrum for those transmitters. It's only 4 transmitters, so in theory it should be easy enough to find frequencies given that our local RF environment isn't crazy cluttered as yet (we're in the San Fernando Valley just north of Los Angeles) and we'd be using wireless workbench for any event large enough that we'd need to use them. Does anyone have any experience using these filters, or are there other alternatives?
 
How often do you use the very top end of the H50 band? Also remember that the 560mHz filter isn't a brick wall, it's a curve. The question for RF Venue is "how much attenunation at 598mHz"? Chances are that a couple of dB will be inconsequential.

Are you already experiencing out of band interference from T-Mobile, or is the recommendation based on RF Venue presumptive best practices?
 
@manuallyfocused Can you tell us about the sorts of issues you are having? If you could take some timelines showing the dropouts or other issues with Wireless Workbench (6.14 or later, please) and post them that would be helpful.
 
Thanks for the quick responses! It's good to know the bandpass isn't a brick wall, I'll ask about the attenuation.

This is somewhat pre-emptive- the big change was to add the ULXD units to our existing Sennheiser units in the hopes of making better use of the available spectrum moving forward. We purchased used inventory from a large rental company, and though they thought all of their gear was in G50 it turned out that one unit was H50.

Our last big production was in January 2020, and we were barely able to run 18 channels of Sennheiser in the AW+ and A ranges with occasional dropouts on one 1-2 channels each show. We had some G range sennheisers in our rack at that point as well (566-608), but couldn't find any open frequencies for anything above about 550 without having squelch set in excess of 20 db. We also had issues using paddle antennas, and ended up switching to 1/2 wave whips going into our distros because the paddles were seeing a ton of extra interference whenever they were pointed toward the stage (this happened with both Sennheiser and Audio Technica paddles). I'll see if we still have the WWB scans from that show.
 
What sort of RF Coordination are you doing? I know you mentioned WWB scans, but are you including your full inventory there?

I just ran a quick and dumb IAS report for ZIP code 91340 which was the first google report for San Fernando. Without too much trouble I was able to fit 8x Senn G range, 8x G50, 8x H50, and 20x Senn Aw+ range.

I have a feeling there are other issues at play here and I'd take it back to basics. If you're seeing better performance with 1/2 wave whips stuck inside a rack then something isn't right in the distribution system or in the coordination. I don't remember the Squelch range on Sennheiser transmitters, it's been a minute since I've used one, but squelch can hide problems as much as it can solve them. If your wireless is parked on top of a low-level DTV station then squelch is just going to hide a problematic noise floor but not solve the fact that it's still a problematic noise floor.

My gut says the issue lays with the coordination - if you had a solid coordination then it wouldn't matter what direction you pointed the paddles at. What sort of paddles are you talking about? A2003 cardioid antennas? Some 1031 Omnis (actually more of a toroid/donut)? Your system would either be picking up or not, no interference if the coordination was a solid one so I'd start there. My first sense is telling me you are padding the noise floor of some DTV station by switching to half waves inside of a rack, setting the squelch up high so only your signal is cutting thru and that's why the half waves were the band-aid (not solution!) to this problem.

The other issue you could possibly run into if you're just plugging in the Sennheiser and Shure stuff into the same distro is their different design philosophies. Sennheiser runs their packs a little hotter on the transmit power side and uses passive antennas. Shure uses lower transmit power but uses active antennas to make up for the lack of transmit power - it's part of their trick to making the ULXD4's work in high density move. But I think that's a step later down the line, you need to get to a place first where you can just have all your transmitters on in one place, they don't intermod to hell, and you can roll them around the stage and nothing drops out.
 
so in theory it should be easy enough to find frequencies given that our local RF environment isn't crazy cluttered as yet (we're in the San Fernando Valley just north of Los Angeles)

You are close enough to LA and Mt. Wilson that it is a congested RF environment. 20 miles is nothing for a million Watts of power. The TV repack that finished in July 2020 put TV stations on channels that were quiet for decades. As so eloquently explained above, do the frequency coordination before doing anything else.
 
I guess some more detailed information may be in order. Our wireless system is broken up into multiple racks to make it easy for us to accommodate a wide range of events in multiple spaces simultaneously (we're a small high school, so we often have a need for a large system set up in the auditorium while simultaneously needing 8-12 additional channels available for use in the gym, outside, or elsewhere). I'm the TD and my primary background is in scenic with lighting a distant second, so audio is very much a tertiary skill for me. That being said, we hire in very good audio engineers with strong RF backgrounds who have also been mystified by some of the issues we've faced, and have helped me to quickly develop my skills over the last few years. I also have an RF Explorer that I use to idiot-check what I'm seeing with the RF receivers, and it does show a significant noise floor above 550 MHz (perhaps due to the proximity of Mt. Wilson, as pointed out by FMEng above).

Rack 1- 2x Sennheiser ASA 1 distros with 8x EM 300-500 G4 receivers in AW+. These are wired in accordance with Sennheiser's diagrams, so Antenna A feeds into the first distro and cascades into the second, Antenna B is into the second distro and cascades into the first, so each receiver is getting 1 antenna without a cascade and 1 antenna with a cascade. This rack has an 8-port network switch for these receivers to communicate with one another. I've used this rack by itself in the gym with A2003 paddles and seen my scans in the receivers spit back very few open frequencies, then switch to whip antennas (outside the rack) or 1031 paddles and seen my available frequencies increase significantly (this is scanning with no transmitters on). As FMEng pointed out above, the difference has significantly increased since the DTV repack.

Rack 2- 2x RF Venue Distro4s with 2x Shure ULXD4Q G50, 2x ULXD4D G50, 1x ULXD4Q H50. These are wired similarly to above, with the primary antenna inputs each going to one distro and cascading to the other. We are not currently utilizing any of the cascade outputs on the ULXD units. The 3 extra outputs on the distros go to BNC couplers on the rear of the rack to daisy chain to other distros when we need to put together a large system (Example- antennas A and B go into Rack 2, then are cascaded to Rack 1 and 3 to give us a max of 28 channels for our musical production). I just built this rack last week so I haven't had a chance to test it yet with our antennas. It has a 16-port network switch for these receivers to communicate with one another and to connect to our mixers via Dante.

Rack 3- 1x RF Venue Distro4 with 4x Sennheiser EM300 G3 receivers in A band, also an 8-port network switch for frequency coordination. This rack gets used either on its own for smaller events or hooked up to Rack 2 as in the example above.

Rack 4- 1x RF Venue Distro4 with 4x Sennheiser EM100 G3 receivers in A1 band. This rack generally gets used on its own and is my go-to rack for smaller setups in the gym. If it's used in conjunction with Rack 1 above, I use the receivers in rack 1 to coordinate frequencies between the two racks, and use the Distro4 in this rack to cascade into the Sennheiser ASA 1 to feed the Rack 1 receivers.

I generally use the receivers to scan and coordinate frequencies for smaller events, and WWB (or possibly WSM when we were just using Sennheiser, can't remember) networked with the receivers to coordinate frequencies for our musical production each year, and 1 or two secondary events per year if we're doing something special. Generally coordinating in the receivers is fine if I'm sticking with one range (or an overlapping range, like AW+ with A1 or A in the Sennheiser world), but we'll likely use WWB a lot more often now that we're mixing manufacturers as well as ranges with the larger events. When coordinating in the rack, I try to keep the squelch set as low as possible (under 15 db usually works ok) and still get enough channels for whatever event we're doing.

It's interesting to hear about the differences between the Sennheiser and Shure gear when it comes to the way they treat antennas. Given that we've observed this behavior while solely using Sennheiser receivers and antennas up to this point, I doubt that the behavior is due to that difference. Similarly, I doubt it's anything the RF Venue distros are doing with the Sennheiser receivers as we're seeing the same behavior with the Sennheiser ASA 1s.

When we were setting up the musical production in 2020, we did some simple tests.
Test 1- Hook up the system (rack organization was different as we did not yet have the Shure units, but the connections were essentially the same) and scan in WWB/WSM with the A2003 paddle antennas in position on either side of the stage just in front of the proscenium (we had a pretty sizable thrust, so this position should have given us good coverage).
Result: very few open frequencies and tons of RF interference across the bands, with no available channels in the G band.
Test 2- swap out the paddles for 1/2 wave whips and BNC couplers (we didn't have the 1031s at this point, I bought those partially because of this experience) and scan in WWB/WSM.
Result: significantly more open frequencies and noticeably lower RF noise across the useful range
Test 3- unplug the long cable runs from the system, use a shorter 50 ohm BNC cable directly connected to one A2003 paddle antenna, and walk around the space pointing the antenna in different directions.
Result: Noticed a massive difference in RF signal at the receivers between the antenna being pointed at the ground vs. pointed towards the stage, especially from stage left (antenna pointing north from our location, which is West Hills zip code 91307. Looking on a map, this is not directly pointed toward Mt. Wilson, though now that I'm aware of that location in our vicinity I'll be more attuned to how it may affect us when it comes to antenna placement). Again, all of this testing was with none of our transmitters turned on. After seeing this we decided to just use the 1/2 wave whips, which for the most part worked fine for the production, except for the limited RF dropouts we experienced.


Hopefully that helps answer some of the questions above. I can take some photos of the racks while I'm at work tomorrow if that could be useful, and I'm waiting to hear back on getting the scans from the last production and from a month ago. My next step is probably to hook the new rack into the system and run the same tests we ran last year and see if we get the same kind of results.
 
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The fact that you get better results with lower gain antennas suggests that there is a strong RF source that is overloading amplifier stages in the distros. I can't speculate what the source is, and it could be on a frequency well outside the bands used by your mics. An overloaded RF stage can generate noise over a wide range of frequencies, which is what you describe. If the offending RF source is far enough outside the pass band of the filter to be well attenuated, then the filter would be a good solution.

Obviously, it would be nice to know the cause the problem before spending money, but it takes the right test equipment and knowledge to find. If RF Venue allows money back returns, then I'd say try the filter.
 
The RFV bandpass filters are 6th order filters so the cutoff is pretty steep. @598MHz you could expect about 40dB of attenuation. Btw… the filters also have 3.5 dB of loss which might be the padding you need to get your gain structure optimized. Padding the signal will improve the sensitivity of analog receivers by improving their SINAD spec.

As far as best practices, you are correct. No telling beforehand what your situation wrt 5g cell phone pink lightening bolts will be like. It depends how many people in your audience have iPhone 12s in their pockets or even worse if they are all holding them up and streaming. Even though it is out of band, T-mobile will mix with your wireless mics/ears and raise your noise floor down to about 550 MHz. Remember, what makes tour wireless mics reliable is keeping the signal more than 20dB above the noise floor and adding these filters will typically drop the noise floor by 6dB or maybe double, all depending.

So you really need to look at this as a future problem. You may not need them today but you might tomorrow, or next week, or 6 months from now, or 2 years from now. So you may only prevent a drop out or two right away, but they will otherwise be growing day by day. So how many can you tolerate?
 
Thanks for the quick responses! It's good to know the bandpass isn't a brick wall, I'll ask about the attenuation.

This is somewhat pre-emptive- the big change was to add the ULXD units to our existing Sennheiser units in the hopes of making better use of the available spectrum moving forward. We purchased used inventory from a large rental company, and though they thought all of their gear was in G50 it turned out that one unit was H50.

Our last big production was in January 2020, and we were barely able to run 18 channels of Sennheiser in the AW+ and A ranges with occasional dropouts on one 1-2 channels each show. We had some G range sennheisers in our rack at that point as well (566-608), but couldn't find any open frequencies for anything above about 550 without having squelch set in excess of 20 db. We also had issues using paddle antennas, and ended up switching to 1/2 wave whips going into our distros because the paddles were seeing a ton of extra interference whenever they were pointed toward the stage (this happened with both Sennheiser and Audio Technica paddles). I'll see if we still have the WWB scans from that show.
Sounds like you had a gain staging problem with the paddles ... and needed to adjust their output gain (if amplified) or the input sensitivities of the receivers.
 
I'll add that the directionality of the paddle antennas applies to receiving your mic's transmissions but also everything else.
If the paddles are FOH pointing at the stage, there may be something that's behind your building by a few feet or miles that's interfering.
Try placing the paddles SL, SR or in the grid to see if you can negate the interference that you're currently amplifying.
 

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