Does anyone have any experience with the Altman or other "copies" of the Source Four PAR? I found the lenses very hard to change with the Source Four, but maybe they have a tool I didn't have. But I'm mainly interested in saving some money. I prefer to buy name brand but this is for my church and funds are very very limited. Thanks.
S4 PAR vs. Altman Star PAR vs. MBT etc.
- Thread starterhemismith
- Start date
Les
Well-Known Member
The problem with the off-brand clones (other than the Altman, which is a high quality unit which I don't consider a "direct copy") is that they cheap out on things that matter to the longevity of the fixture. You will find lower quality reflectors, cheaper hardware (nuts, bolts, etc), and rubber cords in lieu of fiberglass sheathed Teflon high-temp leads. Most of these clones cost around $100 each, in which case I would buy a standard Altman par can before I'd buy an opti-par, ultra-par, flexi-par, etc.
It would also be more difficult to source replacement parts for these "clones". You could probably upgrade all the electrics to high-temp standard parts, but who wants to buy a fixture with the intention of doing this.. By the time you got it to where you wanted it, you had might as well have spent the extra $50 on a Source Four Par.
As far as light output, I'd say they're OK, but having never done a side-by-side shootout with ETC's par, I don't know just how bright they are in comparison. I had a couple of American DJ Opti-Par's (which I believe is the oldest copy), and they were pretty punchy, but the reflector didn't look as precise as the Source Four Par. The overall tooling on the Opti was flimsy and undersized and the beam pattern did seem more uneven than usual. Reflectors are riveted in place, which tells me that the manufacturer considers the unit more disposable than serviceable.
The Altman Star Par, which uses the idea of ETC's Source Four Par without blatantly copying it, is most likely a decent instrument, though I have never seen it in the wild. I suspect the build quality and parts availability to be good, and the light output is probably as comparable as it's going to get without using an HPL lamp. If there are any quirks with it, I would suspect them to have to do with the lens retaining ring, as no manufacturer has one that is super simple to use in all orientations (you have a double edge sword of needing the lens to fit securely while keeping the ability to be remove it easily without the use of tools).
At the end of the day, I'd go with the Source Four par or maybe the Altman Star Par if lamp types are an issue. If you can't afford that, I'd just buy the traditional steel Altman Par 64.
It would also be more difficult to source replacement parts for these "clones". You could probably upgrade all the electrics to high-temp standard parts, but who wants to buy a fixture with the intention of doing this.. By the time you got it to where you wanted it, you had might as well have spent the extra $50 on a Source Four Par.
As far as light output, I'd say they're OK, but having never done a side-by-side shootout with ETC's par, I don't know just how bright they are in comparison. I had a couple of American DJ Opti-Par's (which I believe is the oldest copy), and they were pretty punchy, but the reflector didn't look as precise as the Source Four Par. The overall tooling on the Opti was flimsy and undersized and the beam pattern did seem more uneven than usual. Reflectors are riveted in place, which tells me that the manufacturer considers the unit more disposable than serviceable.
The Altman Star Par, which uses the idea of ETC's Source Four Par without blatantly copying it, is most likely a decent instrument, though I have never seen it in the wild. I suspect the build quality and parts availability to be good, and the light output is probably as comparable as it's going to get without using an HPL lamp. If there are any quirks with it, I would suspect them to have to do with the lens retaining ring, as no manufacturer has one that is super simple to use in all orientations (you have a double edge sword of needing the lens to fit securely while keeping the ability to be remove it easily without the use of tools).
At the end of the day, I'd go with the Source Four par or maybe the Altman Star Par if lamp types are an issue. If you can't afford that, I'd just buy the traditional steel Altman Par 64.
Last edited:
jglodeklights
Well-Known Member
The Altman Star PAR is a completely different beast than the S4 PAR. It essentially takes a standard PAR 64, loses the can, doesn't combine the lamp with the lens, and uses a standard bi-pin HP/HX/GL series lamp. Like a standard PAR 64, you get the larger 10 inch gel frame size. Unlike the S4 PAR, which is incredibly easy in regards to spinning the bottle, the Star PAR is not. There are three tabs on the lens ring at the front of the unit. They tend to get bent and get stuck in the gel frame and accessory holder tabs, which they must pass through in order to move. We also have the rule at my theater that a gel frame must ALWAYS be in these fixtures when hung. The spring loaded retainers for the lens ring wear easily and have a tendency to fail, or to be significantly less secure. If the unit is rocked too much during focus or is bumped by scenery the lens can be released from the fixture. Additionally, we experience more issues with lamp burnouts than our S4 PARs, probably due to poorer heat management (or maybe just that HP/GL series lamps aren't as good as HPL's at surviving? My Shakespeares have the same problem). Finally, the gel/accessory clip returns on its own, which can be annoying while working one handed on a 12 foot A Frame on a 10 foot high platform. Get the picture?
I'm not a fan, except that they do have nice output IMO.
Additionally, the Star PAR runs just under $150, only about $10 less than the S4 PAR.
I'm not a fan, except that they do have nice output IMO.
Additionally, the Star PAR runs just under $150, only about $10 less than the S4 PAR.
Last edited:
We change our S4 lenses when they are hanging on the pipe. We have the electric at about +5 ft above deck, point the fixture straight out at 90 degrees, spin the lens so the release tab is on top, and use a dental pick type tool (scratch awl works, as does a small flat bladed screwdriver, ground down and given a slight bend to the tip), modified in a vise to have a slight bend, to simultaneously push up on the spring tab as well as grab the back of the lens to pop it out.
soundlight
Well-Known Member
I'm going to put another vote against the Star Par. They are horrendous to change lenses on and as stated, it's very hard to "spin the bottle". I find Source Four Par lenses fairly easy to change, but I have extensive experience and a few tricks up my sleeve with regards to this. I find that sometimes a pocketknife is very useful for sliding in to pop out the lens (with a thin blade) and if all else fails open the back and use a dowel with a rag wrapped around the end to push the lens out gently.
Star Pars also blow through gel quicker in my experience.
Star Pars also blow through gel quicker in my experience.
Rarely do I need to resort to it, but for the most stubborn of lenses, a drumstick works well. I like to have the fixture hanging and pointing straight down, with the gelframe clip toward me, and the lens retaining clip just underneath it. Squeeze the clip with one hand, and bang on the front of the fixture with the heel of the other hand.
There's also this:
10 out of 10 productions - Showtec Pars
but I've never seen one in use.
I've only used the StarPAR once, and I seem to recall one had to remove the colorframe to spin the lens?
jglodeklights
Well-Known Member
Yes, this is true (unless you want to cut yourself on the frame). The Star PAR essentially has three slots at its front. From furthest from lens to closest: A. accessory slot, B. color frame slot. C. path for tabs used to spin the lens. As I stated, we leave the color frames in except when spinning the lens as a safety precaution lest the lens ring retaining tabs fail (I've gone up and found a Star PAR I focused with the the lens sitting on one tab and the other side on the color frame). I've had two instances where the retaining tabs for the lens ring have released while I was spinning the lens. One left the lens and lens ring in my hand, a lucky catch; the other ended with shattered glass on the deck.
The link doesn't work.
I've struggled to get the lens out too and I have seen one of those too but never used one. I was thinking that some sort of tool had to exist to make it easier and I was right.
Hmmm. [no parse]http://www.10outof10.co.uk/acatalog/PAR_s.html[/no parse] scroll all the way to the bottom of the page. I thought I had seen these on a US vendor's site, but can't find it.
EDIT: a US (New Hope, Minnesota) located vendor: PA-FLEXIPARTOOL
[no parse]http://www.cmpstore.com/PAR-Lens-Removal-Tool-PA-FLEXIPARTOOL.htm[/no parse]
Last edited:
Thanks everyone, fantastic invaluable information. I wondered if that flexipar tool would work on the Source Four. I have one of those paint tools and I guess I could make something as well. I thought I would need something thinner than that but then strength would be an issue. I'm surprised ETC hasn't come up with something better.
When I had looked at the S4 PAR a while ago the prices seemed quite a bit cheaper than I see it for now -- I thought even cheaper than the Altman. But I searched and found another source that is more reasonable. Unfortunately some web sites aren't clear about what is included so it makes shopping difficult.
When I had looked at the S4 PAR a while ago the prices seemed quite a bit cheaper than I see it for now -- I thought even cheaper than the Altman. But I searched and found another source that is more reasonable. Unfortunately some web sites aren't clear about what is included so it makes shopping difficult.
jglodeklights
Well-Known Member
ETC actually packages them all with 4 lenses (WFL, MFL, NSP, VNSP), a color frame, and a bare three foot power lead. C-Clamps are optional (S4 ERS units always include the C-Clamp), as are the different power connectors (which many dealers offer, at a price, installed or simply included in your package for you to install). Beware of sellers that only add the color frame or additional lenses at additional cost.
Also, recognize that there are two versions of the S4 PAR. The less expensive option, EA, has the standard enhanced aluminum reflector. The other, more expensive, version, MCM, has a metal cold mirror reflector that allows a great amount of heat to escape through the rear of the unit versus the front than in the EA version. Additionally, you can specify either in a white "architectural" finish that will add to the cost!
jglodeklights
Well-Known Member
The Source 4 ERS uses a Borosilicate glass, aka Pyrex, as the base of its reflector. It is then coated with the reflective material. The coating on the MCM is not only different, but the reflector itself is metal; thus the designation Metal versus just Cold Mirror (which is really just a form of a dichroic reflector).
Just have to mention that L&E makes the Corona PAR. Not a blatant S4 copy, and also PAR 64 sized. While I've never had to chance to use one, I'm sure that like all L&E products, they are service grade models that are certainly a step above any DJ company.
http://le-us.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/le_corona_specsheet_updated_12_10.pdf
I've never thought of using a church key for lens removal, I'll have to give that a shot. I know one guy with a homemade tool, a small 3" long piece of thin steel with the last 1/8" at a 90 degree bend,
http://le-us.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/le_corona_specsheet_updated_12_10.pdf
I've never thought of using a church key for lens removal, I'll have to give that a shot. I know one guy with a homemade tool, a small 3" long piece of thin steel with the last 1/8" at a 90 degree bend,
jglodeklights
Well-Known Member
Certainly a viable, albeit more expensive, alternative to the Altman Star PAR if one wishes to have the bi-pin lamp socket. However, more expensive than either the Altman or ETC PARs. And it takes the 10 inch frames. Great for a nice diffuse output, but means larger gel cuts. 4 versus 6 for the S4 PAR or Fresnel.
I have one of the extraction tools that Derek has mentioned. I use it ALL the time to remove the S4 PAR lenses; it makes life much easier. I was fortunate enough to get the last one my preferred vendor had on hand The best $3 I ever spent! I thought he said it was made by AMDJ, but I too have never been able to find it on their site (or anywhere else for that matter).
The best $3 I ever spent! I thought he said it was made by AMDJ, but I too have never been able to find it on their site (or anywhere else for that matter).Similar threads
Vintage Lighting
Believe I know a guy that specializes in that...