Silly Power Question

Derek, you mention above (in the blue highlight) "110-120V between H & N, 220-240V between the two hots if it's truly single phase." This would NOT be a single phase system. If it were a single phase system you would have 0 voltage between the hot legs. Why? Because voltage is a differential and two hots from a single phase would be at the same point in the AC waveform at the same time, thus there would be no differential between them.
I disagree with you on this--have you never heard of "220V single phase service,"? which is most likely how your home is wired, if you have an electric range or air conditioning. I'm going to enlist help from STEVETERRY on this one.

You then went on to say: "or 208V between H & H if it's two legs of a 3ø service." Which is not always true. You only get 208v between hot legs on 3-phase Y (wye) service.
I agree. I should have specified Wye-connected, and will edit that post. I thought I made it clear that Delta-connected services should never be used in the entertainment industry.

On a 3-phase ∆ (delta) service you get 220v/240v between phases and 208v from wild leg to neutral.
What do you get between "non-wild leg" and neutral? I think you're incorrect, again I'll defer to STEVETERRY. But if I ever encountered those voltages, I would NOT use that service.

This thread should serve as an extreme caution to all who don't understand and have not been taught about electricity. Even when you are trained you need to exercise extreme caution, you can't just say "oh this plug fits in this receptacle so it should work."
Totally agree with this.
 
I disagree with you on this--have you never heard of "220V single phase service,"? which is most likely how your home is wired, if you have an electric range or air conditioning. I'm going to enlist help from STEVETERRY on this one.
I thought we were talking 3-phase systems. I have heard of what you speak of, which is a center tapped 240v transformer much like the center tap of a 3-phase delta system. So your primary input is 220/240v and the secondary coil is center tapped and run as neutral, so hot to neutral is 110/120v and hot to hot is 220/240v.

What do you get between "non-wild leg" and neutral? I think you're incorrect, again I'll defer to STEVETERRY. But if I ever encountered those voltages, I would NOT use that service.
Totally agree with this.
Look at the image that I have now linked to twice in this thread. The two "non-wild" legs to neutral should measure 110/120v.
 
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The quirky thing about 3 phase center tapped delta power ( http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=480 ) is that when you eliminate the wild leg (pictured "Phase B") you end up with standard domestic single phase power! (120-0-120 h-h 240) Three phase transformers are actually groupings of 3 single phase transformers. (Wye or Delta depending on how their outputs are wired together.) On Icewolf's Delta reference, One transformer (center tapped) is red, another is black, and the third is blue.) As we are talking about only the points attached to the red winding (120-0-120) we effectively have single phase power, as the hots are 180 degrees out of phase with reference to neutral. This configuration was widely used in the 60's and 70's as you could feed domestic outlets as well as household 240* volt appliances, but you still had 3 phase power available to run large HVAC units. (Plenty still around!)

In my opinion, it fell out of favor because of concerns over the wild leg. Most boxes back then had no mechanical difference on this leg, so you could accidentally plug a two pole breaker into them and catch the wild leg. If this breaker then fed a sub box that distributed to outlets, well... you get the picture.

Three phase Wye service eliminated the wild leg, yet still provided 120* volts while maintaining 3 phase power to larger equipment. The problem is when you have to run something that requires 240* volts, you were out of luck!

* ok, you will see some people saying 110 / 220 volts, and others saying 120 / 240 volts. For those not in the US, we are actually talking about the same thing! I am not sure when it happened, but as a child, it was always called 110 volts. These days, most people call it 120 volts, and in general if you put a tester on it, your wall outlet will probably be somewhere between 118 and 127 volts depending on where you live! Maybe one of the power-gods could post the answer to that one! ;)

EDIT:
Ok, found the answer (maybe) here! (Couldn't resist, had to google!)
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Electrical-Wiring-Home-1734/difference-110-volt-120.htm

From that site:
Robert Wilber
Licensed Philadelphia Electrician
Philadelphia License # 3516 - 16765
*
For simplicity's sake:
110 volts, 115 volts, 120 volts, 125 volts - all the same thing.
You get what you get, and have no say about it.
... and here's why ...
Thomas Edison [no kidding] invented the electric light bulb, and needed to distribute electricity to make it usable. He built a system based on 110 volts DC. It was uneconomical and had large conductors and big voltage drops.
George Westinghouse came up with the idea of using alternating current to transmit electricity. This was valuable, in that the voltage could be changed by the use of a transformer, which allowed the transmission of electricity at a higher voltage, thus reducing line losses due to conductor resistance.
The initial voltage level delivered to homes using the Westinghouse method was nominally 100 volts. Over the years, the secondary voltage has been incrementally raised to 110, then 115, and 120 until it is common today to find 125, 127 and 130 or 132 volts in homes.
The reason for this is the upward ratcheting of transmission voltages to allow for higher demand. Every time your neighbor buys a new device that requires electricity to run, it increases the demand for electrical current on your utility's service conductors. Since these wires are not changed to bigger cables [with lowered resistance due to larger conductor cross-section area] every time demand increases, the only variable under the utility control is voltage levels.
The only way to push a certain variable demanded current [which consumers define] through a fixed resistance [unchanging wire] is to increase the voltage [electrical pressure].


</tangent>
 
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I disagree with you on this--have you never heard of "220V single phase service,"? which is most likely how your home is wired, if you have an electric range or air conditioning. I'm going to enlist help from STEVETERRY on this one.
I agree. I should have specified Wye-connected, and will edit that post. I thought I made it clear that Delta-connected services should never be used in the entertainment industry.
What do you get between "non-wild leg" and neutral? I think you're incorrect, again I'll defer to STEVETERRY. But if I ever encountered those voltages, I would NOT use that service.
Totally agree with this.

OK here we go:

1. A single-phase 240/120V has 240V between the hot legs and 120V between neutral and each of the hot legs. The secondary is simply a 240 winding with a 120V center-tap. It is "single phase", because the primary is fed with a single phase. The two hot legs of the secondary are 180 degrees out of phase with respect to the neutral. This is the type of service you find in most North American single-family homes. The term "a 220V line" comes from the fact that the tolerance on this type of service is typically 220V-240V.

2. A "240V delta" system has 240V between each of the three phases. It has no Neutral. It is used primarily for powering motors.

3. A 240V "high leg delta" system has 240V between each of the three phases. It is often used on a factory floor where there are lots of delta-connected motors and a need for a small amount of 120V power. There is a center tap between two of the phases that produces a neutral. This neutral can only be used with the two phases it center-taps, and produces 120V between the neutral and those two phases. This arrangement produces the moral equivalent of a 240/120V single phase system for the purposes of entertainment equipment. The third phase (the one that is not center tapped) is known as the "wild leg" or "high leg". This cannot be connected to any equipment that needs 120V, since it is typically 208V above the center-tap neutral. The "high leg" must be plainly marked as such, usually with orange. This "high leg delta" is one of the good reasons why we measure a service before connecting to it. Mistaking this type of service for a normal 208Y/120 service, and hooking up the high leg, will result in blown up lamps and equipment.

ST
 
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And here's a nice explanation from Wikipedia of why the high leg is 208V with respect to neutral on a 240V high leg delta. Short answer: 1/2 the phase-to-phase voltage times 1.73:

A high leg delta (also known as wild-leg or red-leg delta) is a type of transformer winding connection sometimes found in older electrical installations. A transformer wound in this fashion will have four wires coming out of the secondary: the three phases, plus a neutral that is used to center-tap one of the windings. The voltages between the three phases are the same in magnitude, however the voltage magnitudes between a particular phase and the neutral vary. The phase-to-neutral voltage of two of the phases will be half of the phase-to-phase voltage. The remaining phase-to-neutral voltage will be √3 times half the phase-to-phase voltage. Typically, the transformer is designed such that the 'B' phase is the 'high' leg. According to Article 110.15 of the 2005 National Electrical Code, panelboards connected to this type of transformer must explicitly identify the high leg, preferably by coloring it orange.

Example
Consider the low voltage side of a 480/240 V high leg delta connected transformer, where the 'B' phase is the 'high' leg. The line to line voltages are all the same:
Vab = Vbc = Vac = 240V
Because the winding between the 'A' and 'C' phases is center-tapped, the line-to-neutral voltages for these phases are as follows:
Van = Vcn = 120V
But the phase-neutral voltage for the 'B' phase is different:
V_{bn} = 120\sqrt{3}\ V \approx 208\ V
This can be proven by writing a KVL equation starting from the grounded neutral:
0 + 120 \angle 0^\circ + 240 \angle 120^\circ = 120\sqrt{3} \angle 90^\circ
Note: Writing the KVL equation going the other way, the same magnitude is found, though the phase angle will of course be different.


ST
 
I did not get any response about there being different plugs between the two systems?
 

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