There may well be an effects generator, but the term: Effects Engine™ is a trademark of FPS/HES.
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Strand Palette/Light Palette Upgraded
- Thread starterSlurpy
- Start date
My understanding of the Palette software is that it doesn't care if you are using CMY or RGB. You can actually hit a button to jump back and forth between RGB and CMY space. All four gel company lines as well as several ways of looking at the color spectrum are available to you in the color picker. Plus the goofy upload a picture feature... not sure why that's so cool but it's there. You can text search Manufacturer's gel book type in Pink and every gel with the word pink will appear from the selected manufacturer. My trainer kept stressing that the console only cares about the end result color. Everything else just gets manipulated by the software to that color.
By the way I'm not trying to start a console feature war with you Jmabray. It's actually quite fascinating to me how similar Ion and Palette really are. It sounds like more than ever before it's going to be a case where you need to sit down and try out both consoles to see what you like best as the software will do very similar things.
It'll also be interesting to see how the software updates play out. If Strand really does keep releasing new software every few months (as my trainer thought would happen) and ETC does the same we could have a very rapidly evolving group of consoles here. Let's face it for the first time the desk is no longer particularly important, it's all about the computer inside and it's software. We could see a rapidly changing console with a variety of new features and abilities ever few months. One manufacturer comes out with a cool concept what's to stop the other from adding it into their next update. Things could get really tough for the manufacturers to compete but the result could be great for the consumers. How many years have we hated a particular feature of a console but been stuck with it in the past. Now we are looking at a world where if you get enough of your friends to request a console feature it can be added in the next software update. That's Very cool.
jmabray
Active Member
Actually EOS and ION both save the color data as HSI, (Hue Saturation Intensity) data. Those values are always the same regardless of the manufacturer or anything like that.
Yeah, I am not trying to start a console war either, just educating you, and by extension, everyone who reads this thread, about some of the features of the ION. ETC has already been on a schedule of releasing software every three to four months. It's been pretty exciting to try and stay on top of all the changes that have gone from version 1.0 to 1.3 (where we are now). From what I have been told, 1.4 is going to be a major feature release as well, so it will be interesting to see what everything is going to be.
You are right though, most of the features are going to be similar from console to console. It really is going to come down to how you interface with the desk. I know ETC has done a great deal of research in this area as it has gone about the development of this new line of desks. (I'm not saying that Strand hasn't, I just don't know as much about their process as I do ETC's.)
You take a test drive of each of the desks and decide which one works best for you. Like I said before, It really is going to be an interesting next few years.
If I correctly understand your use of the word "desk" to mean "physical user/programmer/operator interface," I couldn't disagree with you more vehemently. Once I've learned where all of a console's buttons, switches, wheels, faders, and encoders are located, and what each does, I don't want any changes. New features added in software updates are acceptable and desirable, as long as the prior functions and methods of the console don't change. I don't want buttons re-labeled or re-purposed.
I didn't mind one bit that there was ONE very prominently labeled button on the HogII that never did anything, and would have screamed bloody murder had it been given a useful purpose and renamed. (Anyone? Bueller?)
Every time I sit down at a grandMA that has had a software update, I have to ask someone "What has changed between version v5.761 and v5.900?" Sometimes it's minor (new personalities for fixtures of which I've never heard); sometimes it's major (What! I can now use the USB ports for something other than charging my cellphone?).
Knowing a console's layout to a degree that it becomes muscle memory enables one to be a very time-efficient programmer. I was trying to recall the other day the keystrokes I used to record M*6 ( Derek's Save to Disk) on every Expression-series console I've ever used. It's been at least five years since I've written that macro, but IIRC the steps are: STG REL REL REL SETUP 3 ENTER 1 ENTER ENTER STG. Had the manufacturer changed the order of the menu items for some reason, they would have heard from me!
The ergonomics of the Lighting Control System are the most important determining factor to a user, programmer, or operator. I couldn't care less if the processor is a 286/12 OR a 2x3GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon. I don't care if the software is written in Israel, Germany, England, Canada, Daneland, or Austin, TX--as long as it has few bugs and never crashes.
One Lighting Software of which Gafftaper is found failed me the first time I tried to use it, and in my world, nothing gets a second chance.
I'm looking forward to experiencing both LightPalette/Palette and Eos/Ion, although there's a good possibility I personally will never have the opportunity to use either on a show, professionally. Just my 2¢.
jmabray
Active Member
Derek - I think that you and gaff are actually saying the same things. His point was, I think, that both of the major theatrical manufacturers are going to have pretty much the exact same features now, where as that wasn't really the case in the past. That it is all about the interface now. In the past the 300 series, for instance, did a some things that the express wouldn't do. Now, with consoles more and more being software driven, that wouldn't be the case as often (or for very long).
Exactly. There's now no reason that ETC can have a cool feature that Strand doesn't have... at least not for long. So really the choice between brands for these low to middle end of the market consoles will be more about how you like the overall look and feel of the console and how you like the way the software works. Everything else is just a software update away.
At the same time Derek's got a really important point about major changes in software. Adding new features in softkey menus is one thing, but if major button features are up in the air (like Strand recently turning macro buttons into secondary soft key buttons). That could be really confusing for the end user. The manufacturers will have to make sure they don't get too carried away with adding features and make it really difficult for us to keep up. It's no big deal to me updating my software on my one console and learning the changes, but for those of you who are out there who work a different console every week, It'll be a nightmare if there are dramatic variations between software versions.
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This looks like a signifigant oversight on someone's part...
When the local HS did it's theater rebuild (completed almost a year ago) with a Strand Light Palette, the spec from the theater consultant included the PoE unit. (The spec was actually written for ETC gear, but they ended up with Strand.) Either the consultant, or the dealer should have caught this.
One question to ask... how do they expect you (or whoever is responsible) to sign-off that the nodes are functional as delivered. Perhaps you should just report them as defective, since they clearly don't work as delivered
Oh, and they've already used the trick of "lying" to the console on several shows... works great!
ETC did this on the Express when they added some ML functionality to the console, changing the Dimmer key to Fixture.
I know we need a Fixture key, but I argued that 90% of the folks using that console at the time weren't using ML's and now a useful hard key was soft.
So, OK, I got used to it and it was no big deal as Dimmer stayed the same on the RFU, but then they changed it again if you went Emphasis. The location of the dimmer key is soft as well in Patch, which is just plain dumb. All to make way for ML's.
Dimmer is now in buried 2 or 3 pages into softkeys and it's a PITA, truly.
I agree with Derek, that some core features of a console do not want to change with software releases - dimmer access being one of them. I've had many pointed comments to say about the development of the Eos and Ion, and about how the very basic stuff is still being used, like dimmers. Can't seem to ever get an answer out of ETC as to how the RRFU on ION works and does it allow multiple dimmer call up. I'm going to have to find time to read thru the bloody manuals.
FWIW and as comment on Strand vs. Ion/Eos, Strand has seemingly developed an entire line of consoles that emulate - hell, they copy what ETC has had for years - Sub Pallette (Insight), small and large 2 scene (Express 2 scenes), as well as consoles without faders (Expression/Obsession). ETC in the mean time has gone, what I think is a smarter route and built 2 basic consoles in each OS Syntax (Eos and Congo) with add-on fader panels. Granted that Strand continues the concept of linear software across the line, which even ETC did not do with Smartfade. Go figure.
Note that the Eos/Ion/Congo add on panels are NOT cheap. To replace a 48 ch. 2 scene Express ($7,000 list) means an Ion ($6700), 2-2x20 fader wings ($3400 ea - $6800 total), plus maybe a 1x20 @ $860 - or about $14,000. All to get a console that has manual handles, a concept that David Lincecum, the Marketing Manager at ETC commented on, on the ETC Consoles Forum - snip:
"The ultimate decision - supported by market research - was that 2 scene mode is primarily a teaching tool on any system over 24 channels. Now granted - 24 channels is a debated point - but that was the decision. We ultimately believe that 2 scene mode is more difficult and less dependable on any production over the 24 channel size."
Interesting comment.
My late to the game $.02
Steve B.
This looks like a signifigant oversight on someone's part...
When the local HS did it's theater rebuild (completed almost a year ago) with a Strand Light Palette, the spec from the theater consultant included the PoE unit. (The spec was actually written for ETC gear, but they ended up with Strand.) Either the consultant, or the dealer should have caught this.
One question to ask... how do they expect you (or whoever is responsible) to sign-off that the nodes are functional as delivered. Perhaps you should just report them as defective, since they clearly don't work as delivered
Oh, and they've already used the trick of "lying" to the console on several shows... works great!
This is probably one of the many things that got screwed up because of budget cuts initially followed by ordering later on our own. I was warned by my local Strand sales rep about the PoE need but we assumed that there would be a PoE Router in the system that would take care of the problem. On the flip side if the nodes are cut from the package there's no need to pay twice as much for a PoE router. So I got the squeeze in the middle. No one I can really complain to about it. Other than to say in general it's silly to sell them without the power supply in the first place.
Steve another interesting factor that many of us aren't used to yet is the mouse and keyboard. I noticed in training that in patching for example, there are times that you could either chose a one or two soft key process to access a menu to type in a command... or you could just double click a box and input a number. Or instead of selecting a group of instruments by typing in a long string of numbers it's hold down control on the keyboard and click them all with the mouse. My initial impression of Palette Software is that a mastery of mouse options may save a good deal of keystrokes. Not exactly sure how that works in the ETC console world but I got the feeling that I'll definitely be using the mouse more on my Strand.
Also have to say that my wireless PDA RFU kicks ETC's cordless phone remote butt! I have basic keypad control, submaster control, view of the instrument grid of what's on, cue playback control, an instrument check feature that turns them all on in order, even a flash instrument feature. Lot's of cool things. I know ETC's logic is that if you drop the PDA it's real expensive to replace. Where you can always get a phone for $20. But those phone's have such limited features. Last I heard it sounded like ETC was going to stay phone only on some of their consoles. Is that right?
Also have to say that my wireless PDA RFU kicks ETC's cordless phone remote butt! I have basic keypad control, submaster control, view of the instrument grid of what's on, cue playback control, an instrument check feature that turns them all on in order, even a flash instrument feature. Lot's of cool things. I know ETC's logic is that if you drop the PDA it's real expensive to replace. Where you can always get a phone for $20. But those phone's have such limited features. Last I heard it sounded like ETC was going to stay phone only on some of their consoles. Is that right?
I ran into this 2 years ago when I spec'd and purchased some ML's with an Emphasis and 2 - Net2 2 port nodes. Unlike my first set of 2 ports on the original system purchase, the new nodes did not come with wall wart power supplies.
In reality, it was cheaper to purchase and add-in a PoE switcher then to pay for 2 power supplies.
In practice, the PoE makes it much more flexible as you do not have to find AC power for the node(s).
One caution though, at least with ETC devices, is to isolate and label the PoE ports from any standard port and to have the ability to patch the ports to and from the PoE and the regular non-powered ports so as to not attempt a connection into the network on a powered port with a device that doesn't want to see power - such as a laptop.
My Net2 patch bay has all the connections for powered ports in blue Cat5 cables, with non-powered ports in black.
Steve B.
I have to agree and disagree with Mr. Lincecum. Yes, my Ward-Leonard 60 dimmer, 5 scene preset, which required 4 people to run, was a great educational tool, but I see no need what so ever for any two-scene preset system today. The Insight3x remains one of my favorite ETC consoles. Why limit oneself to one channel per handle, when that handle can be a submaster, look, or cuestack? I've busked many a show on a HogII using the wing as a single-scene preset. Give the Concert LD all his PAR Washes on the wing and I do the movers on the main. If he's nice to me, I'll even let him push the [DBO] key sometimes.
The [Pig] key is one of the most used. It acts as a modifier when held while pressing another key, just like [shift] or [ctrl] on a personal computer. Keep trying.
I had a conversation with David Lincecum a year or so during which he told me that when he worked at the ETC LA office, they would push the Insight III to the TV studios, to no avail, as they all wanted Expressions. This was a concept he too could not understand as the Insight seemingly had better and faster control.
I go back and forth with the need for a large 2 scene, as it's not as often that I'm actually running in 2 scene, as opposed to simply using 40 or more manual handles with a lot of subs. I did a show 2 weeks ago, no company designer, my design and adaptation, on 74 manual faders. Building from faders was ton's faster then using a keypad, as it's all laid out and labeled in front of you. I got very good at running in single scene mode "Holding" a look on a sub and then building a new Go To look on the manual faders. Similar to how the Colortran Scene Master worked, and I'm certain the Ion or Congo Jr's with fader wings can do the same. I also did a show last night with a visiting LD on a Grand MA Light. 2nd time we've seen this version and it was a cued show with statics as well as a dozen ML's and LED Pars. I went to the MA website this morning and was saddened to see that they do not offer fader wing expansion.
So maybe David at ETC is correct that the day of large 2 scene is over.
That brings us back somewhat to the original topic and where Strand is heading, as it's my opinion that the Strand console series forces the user to lock themselves in to a particular type of console - 120 subs, OR, 48 ch. 2 scene OR Classic cueing console OR ML control. Seemingly a step backwards to the features that Marquee offered with it's add-on wing panels added to a basic console series, so it will be interesting to see which console manufacturer ends up with the next generation high school market.
Steve B.
This isn't really true at all. Why? USB. Plain and simple. As we talked about earlier in the thread, both ETC and Strand are working to add the features that the end user wants into the software. So, if enough Strand users wanted wings all Strand would have to do is produce the wing and update the software.
On the other hand, ETC is saying the user has two choices, EOS or ION. ION has no standard faders, you HAVE to buy a wing if you want faders. EOS has 10 faders, if you want more you have to buy ION wings for it.
Then if we look back at Strand and all the choices, all have at least 12 faders, and all have a keypad. If you want 128 faders and the functionality of a normal cue stack, you can have that on the SubPalette. It is all the same software (and yes, I know that EOS and ION run the same software too).
I think the big thing is that as shows (even in high schools) get more complex, it is getting less feasible to run them without recording cues. I am not arguing for or against either manufacturer, just pointing out facts. Also pointing out that yeah, I think the era of the physical faders is declining.
Alex, the choices you and I have described is exactly what both ETC and Strand are presenting to the buyers. Have you or anyone here seen any info that Strand is going to offer fader panels down the road ?. I haven't, and while that's not to say they can't, why didn't they do so already ? as it would sure seem to be a HUGE selling point. They have created a LOT of new hardware and add'l wings don't seem to be the route they are taking.
What I find interesting, and the point I was trying to get across, is that prior to Genlyte buying Strand, the Marquee line had exactly what ETC is offering, namely a basic "Head" with add-on gear - Fader wing, Button box, etc... with the concept being that the user could easily tailor the system to their needs. The current line out of Strand seemingly indicates a marketing strategy that put ETC where it is right now, all the while ETC is going a different route.
The bottom line is how does it all price out as apples for apples. I'm guessing that the Ion with the extra fader wings added in, is going to be pricier then comparable Strand and it will then remain to be seen if the legendary ETC tech support is enough of a selling point to non-professional users to keep Strand from owning that end of the market.
SB
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jmabray
Active Member
Wow, I go out of town and away from the computer for the day and there is a lot to talk about.....
Not at all. The Phone remote is a basic remote that comes enabled on the Congo line and may, one day, be enabled on the ION (There is a jack there, but it is not currently enabled in the software.) However, this is by no means the entirety of the remote control options for the ETC line of consoles, just the most cost effective. It is there to provide a low cost option to those who can't afford a full remote. ETC still has the CRRFU (Congo Radio Remote Focus Unit), the RRFU (for the Express/ion line) and the RFR (Radio Focus Remote). The Radio Focus remote is a wireless device with an LCD screen, 2 encoders, and a host of keys and softkeys. The screen is a (I believe) 4 line LCD display that is, while pretty small, very readable. (I was a doubter at first, until I saw it in action.) This RFR is a NET3 device. This means that it can (or will) not only be able to plug into the desk (via USB) it can also plug in to any lighting network tap in your system. The two encoders on the side can be used to access several things, including ML attributes like pan and tilt....
The basic premise here is that most people were not using a 2 scene console as a 2 scene console. More often, they were using the channel faders to set the look and then record it into memory. Then play back the recorded cue. The same thing can be accomplished with the ION desk with one fader wing. (remember here that those fader wings are pageable, a 2x10 has 20 total faders over 15 pages, for a total of 300 or so.) Right now they are only submasters, but what those faders become in future software releases remains to be seen. I have heard talk of playbacks of course, but also, giving the end user the ability to make them channels if they want....
Also - on the ION (and EOS as well) there is a module you can load on a screen that gives you pageable virtual sliders. So truth be told, you really don't even need a fader wing. (No its not the most elegant solution, but it is possible.)
Not really. ETC is saying that you have multiple choices. For your tracking console you have the EOS and ION series. For a preset style console, you have the Congo series. For your low cost alternatives, you have the SmartFade line of consoles. While no one manufacturer can be all things to everyone, I tend to think that ETC has done a pretty good job of giving an end user a lot of different options to choose from. (I'm not saying that other manufacturer's haven't done so, just that ETC has done a pretty good job of it.)
Actually,you should be able to plug anything into that port and not have to worry about it. The power is carried down pins that are not used in a standard switch port. They will just ignore the power completely.
Ok I think that I have wandered all over the map here and picked and chosen through various replies. If I see any more later I may chime in more, but I think that I have rambled enough for now.
Not at all. The Phone remote is a basic remote that comes enabled on the Congo line and may, one day, be enabled on the ION (There is a jack there, but it is not currently enabled in the software.) However, this is by no means the entirety of the remote control options for the ETC line of consoles, just the most cost effective. It is there to provide a low cost option to those who can't afford a full remote. ETC still has the CRRFU (Congo Radio Remote Focus Unit), the RRFU (for the Express/ion line) and the RFR (Radio Focus Remote). The Radio Focus remote is a wireless device with an LCD screen, 2 encoders, and a host of keys and softkeys. The screen is a (I believe) 4 line LCD display that is, while pretty small, very readable. (I was a doubter at first, until I saw it in action.) This RFR is a NET3 device. This means that it can (or will) not only be able to plug into the desk (via USB) it can also plug in to any lighting network tap in your system. The two encoders on the side can be used to access several things, including ML attributes like pan and tilt....
The basic premise here is that most people were not using a 2 scene console as a 2 scene console. More often, they were using the channel faders to set the look and then record it into memory. Then play back the recorded cue. The same thing can be accomplished with the ION desk with one fader wing. (remember here that those fader wings are pageable, a 2x10 has 20 total faders over 15 pages, for a total of 300 or so.) Right now they are only submasters, but what those faders become in future software releases remains to be seen. I have heard talk of playbacks of course, but also, giving the end user the ability to make them channels if they want....
Also - on the ION (and EOS as well) there is a module you can load on a screen that gives you pageable virtual sliders. So truth be told, you really don't even need a fader wing. (No its not the most elegant solution, but it is possible.)
Not really. ETC is saying that you have multiple choices. For your tracking console you have the EOS and ION series. For a preset style console, you have the Congo series. For your low cost alternatives, you have the SmartFade line of consoles. While no one manufacturer can be all things to everyone, I tend to think that ETC has done a pretty good job of giving an end user a lot of different options to choose from. (I'm not saying that other manufacturer's haven't done so, just that ETC has done a pretty good job of it.)
Actually,you should be able to plug anything into that port and not have to worry about it. The power is carried down pins that are not used in a standard switch port. They will just ignore the power completely.
Ok I think that I have wandered all over the map here and picked and chosen through various replies. If I see any more later I may chime in more, but I think that I have rambled enough for now.
I was told a while back that there were no plans to add any modules to the Strand Line... I was wondering about an optional encoder wheel module. So far that seems to be true although there are plenty of free USB ports on the console to do anything they want in the future.
While I agree that there is no need for a 2 scene preset in the modern world. There is a huge need in the typical high school and lower world where no one knows how to use the system. They want one slider per channel and they just want to be able to go in and turn on 3 specific lights without any training on the scary keypad. I was stunned a couple years ago to drop by the local high school to discover an express being used as a 2 scene preset because no one knew how to record a cue or a submaster. Never overestimate the poor quality tech that is happening out there in MANY schools. A Strand Preset Palette is now the top of the line in that market. I think it's a very poor move for ETC not to write the software to enable that option for ION. There will be many projects that go with Strand or something from the cheaper console market instead.
While I agree that there is no need for a 2 scene preset in the modern world. There is a huge need in the typical high school and lower world where no one knows how to use the system. They want one slider per channel and they just want to be able to go in and turn on 3 specific lights without any training on the scary keypad. I was stunned a couple years ago to drop by the local high school to discover an express being used as a 2 scene preset because no one knew how to record a cue or a submaster. Never overestimate the poor quality tech that is happening out there in MANY schools. A Strand Preset Palette is now the top of the line in that market. I think it's a very poor move for ETC not to write the software to enable that option for ION. There will be many projects that go with Strand or something from the cheaper console market instead.
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