Verify my math on this...

[Ravenbar]

Trying to reconfigure a 3yr old LED fixture installation by moving (6) VL800 Propars to thew FOH grid, when they now live over the stage, so far into the wings as to be useless for shows.

THe FOH grid has 2 electrics, each having 4 non-dim circuits fed by ETC Sensor+ R20 relay modules. That, by my calculations give 17,600w, assuming 110v.

Current fixtures fed from this, including assuming another position directly above this is also fed from it, as it has no non-dim circuits up there(it containing (8) Prolight Eclipse FS fixtures:
(4) VL2600 drawing 550w/ea = 2200w
(6)VL800 Propars drawing 230w/ea = 1380w
(16)Prolight Eclipse FS drawing 200w/ea = 3200w

That would leave 10,820w for additional fixtures, assuming I can get DMX Universe 2 data to the position, Universe 1 being filled, and being the only universe available at that position. To do that, I can either run a data cable up and over all the curtain tracks, or use the pair of Showbabies we bought this year, although they are to run battery powered fixtures within scenic elements, so I'd hate to install them permanantly.

I've got 90 months to figure this out, as I won't be back in the space until Jan. 2025, unless something else comes up unexpectedly.

 

[Ford]

There is a lot of information missing here.
Are you assuming a full 40a per module?
Are you also assuming that these fixtures all have perfect power factor?
Do you have recepticals rated at 20a?
Are you using 12awg cable? 14awg is really suitable for 15a (dropping you down to 13,200w).
Finally, is your power 100% stable at 110v? Any dip or brownout may cause serious problems if your relays are fully loaded).

It’s probably a little safer for you, and your equipment to run with a little overhead… maybe 25% (or more).

 

[almorton]

Ummm, if the circuit is 16A @ 110v that's 1760W, surely? 17600W @ 110v is 160A

 

[Ravenbar]

There is a lot of information missing here.
Are you assuming a full 40a per module?
Are you also assuming that these fixtures all have perfect power factor?
Do you have recepticals rated at 20a?
Are you using 12awg cable? 14awg is really suitable for 15a (dropping you down to 13,200w).
Finally, is your power 100% stable at 110v? Any dip or brownout may cause serious problems if your relays are fully loaded).

It’s probably a little safer for you, and your equipment to run with a little overhead… maybe 25% (or more).

The system is a conversion from a dual 20a dimmer system, replacing some modules with relay modules and swapping the fixture end to edison connectors. I've loaded most of the circuits to near their 20a rating, and had most of the lights on for brief times(i.e. curtain calls) without issues, prior to the conversion, so I have no doubt 2200w per circuit is sustainable. The current setup has both these circuits in the same relay module, so there are only 2 dual relay modules feeding the entire FOH grid. The circuitry imbalance was one of my biggest fights with the old conventional only system, as only 30/120 circuits are on the FOH grid, with an additional 12 up in the catwalk which has a long throw and bad angles for anything but far upstage zones, with narrow angle fixtures. With the conventional system, I had 8-10 1990 vintage Colortran Zoom fixtures located up there.

The fixture numbers I gave are the numbers the datasheets for the fixtures say is their stated max wattage. Honestly I'm looking to add another 1380w to a system with nearly 11k watts of unused watage. If these fixtures have such a bad power factor that utilizing 50% of the rated wattage causes overload, that's faulty design on the fixture manufacturers.

Each circuit has dual outlets, so 10 amp outlets would work, of the load is balanced right, and 15a is easily achieved, and although I haven't messed with the new lights much, I'm sure they're 15a at minimum.

Wiring is from the original dimmer system, with 20a circuits with dual stage pin outlets, who's smallest connector is 20a, so no doubt the wiring is up to the task.

I say 110v, but voltage here is generally in the 115 -120v range. I'm also not planning on loading the circuits close to their max rating. I'm looking to add ~1380w to a system who's current load is half of the apparent load if can handle. I did the calculations with 110v to add some safety factor in at that stage. Adding 1380w to the current system is still allowing a ~50% safety factor.

 

[Ravenbar]

Ummm, if the circuit is 16A @ 110v that's 1760W, surely? 17600W @ 110v is 160A

4 dual relay modules each rated at 20 amps(so 8 circuits at 20a each.) I'm using 110v as a safety factor, as voltage here is in the 115-120v range.

Your math is exactly correct. (8) 20 amp circuits equals 160a, which equates to 17600w at 110v.

I've got (8) 20a relay circuits feeding this position, 4 on the 1st electric, and 4 on the second. There are also an additional (26) 20a dimmer circuits available at this position, and their well used, as it's a mixed plot, and the Shakesreare and Colortran lekos come out as needed, as well as 5 circuits worth of 6" fresnels(9) being nearly permanently installed. The alternative to moving the Propars, is to bring a flock of StarPars out of retirement to fill the front wash requirement.

My design style is to have a warm/cool cross of lekos, with a front "white" fill(with wash type fixtures) light to minimize shadows between the color beams. Then overhead/backlighting as needed. Since the conversion to LED, I've been doing without the front fill lights. Starpars would work(I've got at leat 20), but I'd prefer to be using the Propars, both for color matching purposes, and as they have a zoom function, so I could also use them as a "special" while still in close enough to a wash position as to be dual purpose, and having the ability to change color is helpful as well.

 

[almorton]

Of course. I'm still thinking of European circuit ratings. My mistake.

 

[Ravenbar]

Of course. I'm still thinking of European circuit ratings. My mistake.

I'd rather be extra cautious, than risk a fire. I've had enough electrical fires in the past year to last a lifetime. My dayjob is in a recycling plant, and we had a 480v 60hp motor overheat and arc out last summer. When it arced out, it tripped a 200a 480v breaker. I was the first to get to it, grab a fire extinguisher, and put it out. I was shaking for hours afterwards. Hours later, once the motor was removed, and sent to the shop, they pressurewashed it, and it was still hot enough to make steam. Managements only question was why I didn't pull the fire alarm...(umm, I was busy putting the fire out, and the fire alarm station was 20ft past the fire. Had it been a get out of the building situation, I would have; as it was just residualk oil around the motor that was burning(it drives a hydraulic pump.))

When I heard my most recent show was using a multitude of Li-Ion battery packs, I requested they have 2 half full buckets of sand on each side of stage(they didn'tt), in case one of the packs gets angry if can be dumped in one bucket and buried with the other. THe most common fire where I wirk is Li-Ion batteries getting unhappy with their handling and becoming little self feeding fires.

 

[jglodeklights]

You're using an incorrect power draw for the VL2600- the one you listed is the source wattage and not the actual draw that account for the electronics and motors driving the fixtures. The full draw is 830W.

 

[almorton]

On an unrelated note, are you sequencing the switch on so you don't get huge inrush at power on?

 

[derekleffew]

I've got 90 months to figure this out, as I won't be back in the space until Jan. 2025, unless something else comes up unexpectedly.

According to my slide rule, you've got 9, not 90, months. Dang decimal points moving by themselves. The rest of your math seems okay, with the caveat that it's the inrush current that'll get ya, and manufacturers don't/won't/can't publish those specifications. I'm guessing most users already at least try to keep brands/models segregated from one another.

 

[almorton]

Inrush will get you every time.

 

[almorton]

ETC do publish the inrush, at least for some of their fixtures.

 

[Jay T]

Your math is correct but an easier way that builds in a safety factor is to use 100 for voltage. ie 20 amp at 100 v = 2000 watts, 575 watt lamp at 100 v = 5.75 amps rounded to 6 amps for easier quicker load calculations

 

[TimMc]

I never load a circuit to more than 80% of the rating on the overcurrent protection device. YMMV.

 

[Ravenbar]

ETC do publish the inrush, at least for some of their fixtures.

No ETC fixtures in the space. On the Conventional side, Altman Shakespearse, zipstrips, StarPars, and 6" Fresnels; and some 1990 vintage Colortran Lekos. On the LED side, Strand Cyc lights, Varilight Propars, showlines, and moving heads, and Prolight Eclipse FS lekos.

Your math is correct but an easier way that builds in a safety factor is to use 100 for voltage. ie 20 amp at 100 v = 2000 watts, 575 watt lamp at 100 v = 5.75 amps rounded to 6 amps for easier quicker load calculations

For my purposes, it's still well within safe limits with those numbers.

According to my slide rule, you've got 9, not 90, months. Dang decimal points moving by themselves. The rest of your math seems okay, with the caveat that it's the inrush current that'll get ya, and manufacturers don't/won't/can't publish those specifications. I'm guessing most users already at least try to keep brands/models segregated from one another.

I understand, but have no way to calculate those numbers, and in this situation, I'munsure it that's going to be possible, just because of a lack of distribution cables. The installer did leave a filing cabinet drawer's worth of power cables, either edison to ?powercon? or unterminated to ?powercon?, and a bunch of uninstalled conncetors. There seem to be 2 different versions of the powercon connectors, and as I've nver worked with them, I know nothing about them. If I ask them to buy something they will, I just don't know what to even ask for. I also have no ideal how the existing rig is connected, as I've never messed with it since it was installed. I do know 8 of the Eclipse's are in another position above the one in question, and I've never noticed a power cable running up to there, but there are no non-dim circuits in the old dimmer circuits that feed that position.

I never load a circuit to more than 80% of the rating on the overcurrent protection device. YMMV.

It appears that there is ~1/2 the capacity free. I'll have to do some cable tracing to see which circuits are feeding which lights.. Hopefully there is an unused circuit that I can simply daisy chain power through the (6) VL800's I want to add to the position.

 

[Jay T]

There are 2 types of powercon, at fixture the blue is input and white is output. Just match them up. Making terminations with those loose connector is pretty simple. L is +hot, N is -cold and ground is ground

 

[TimMc]

Also note that the original PowerCons (blue or white) are not rated for mating/unmating while powered/under load. The Tru One is, however.

 

[Ravenbar]

There are 2 types of powercon, at fixture the blue is input and white is output. Just match them up. Making terminations with those loose connector is pretty simple. L is +hot, N is -cold and ground is ground

From what I recall, there are yellow ones, and another color. I know the yellow ones for the VL800 Propars.

 

[almorton]

Yellow aren't powercon, they're tru-one.

 

[RobT]

Trying to reconfigure a 3yr old LED fixture installation by moving (6) VL800 Propars to thew FOH grid, when they now live over the stage, so far into the wings as to be useless for shows.

THe FOH grid has 2 electrics, each having 4 non-dim circuits fed by ETC Sensor+ R20 relay modules. That, by my calculations give 17,600w, assuming 110v.

Current fixtures fed from this, including assuming another position directly above this is also fed from it, as it has no non-dim circuits up there(it containing (8) Prolight Eclipse FS fixtures:
(4) VL2600 drawing 550w/ea = 2200w
(6)VL800 Propars drawing 230w/ea = 1380w
(16)Prolight Eclipse FS drawing 200w/ea = 3200w

That would leave 10,820w for additional fixtures, assuming I can get DMX Universe 2 data to the position, Universe 1 being filled, and being the only universe available at that position. To do that, I can either run a data cable up and over all the curtain tracks, or use the pair of Showbabies we bought this year, although they are to run battery powered fixtures within scenic elements, so I'd hate to install them permanantly.

I've got 90 months to figure this out, as I won't be back in the space until Jan. 2025, unless something else comes up unexpectedly.

A few things here -
First off, for circuit loading, standard practice is to use load current not power. This takes into account power factor.
Secondly, your available power is split across 8 circuits, so your load also needs to be properly spit across circuits. As noted, for continuous loads, the 20A nominal circuit needs to be derated to 80% of nominal. So for an R20 module rated at 20A and assuming that everything downstream is sized appropriately, you've got 8x 16A circuits.

Per the manual, the VL2600 series pulls right around 7A at 120V, so you can put 2 on a circuit. 4 fixtures requires 2 circuits, so you have 6 left. Note that these circuits are filled to 14A, so can probably be considered "fully loaded"
The load current for the VL800 Propars isn't specified, but input power is rated at 230W. Assuming a power factor of 0.9 and 110V input, that's a calculated current of 2.3A. So all 6 units will fit on one circuit, leaving 5 left. With just shy or 14A on this circuit, I'd also consider it fully loaded.
The Prolight Eclipse FS also does not have the input current liusted, but power is noted as 200W at a power factor of 0.95. This gives a load current of 1.9A, so you could fit all 16 units into 2 circuits. Note that due to inrush constraints, Prolight recommends limiting a circuit to 10 fixtures at 230V. Inrush is generally better controlled at 120V operation, so putting 8 on a circuit at 120V wouldn't worry me.

All this leaves you with 3x 16A circuits left for additional fixtures, or just under 6kW at 120V.

And you might also want to check your month math...