Design Bad theater infrastructure help

A little background. I was hired as a lighting designer for a show that is happening in our local performing arts center. There is no equipment budget for the show. The space is described as an indoor amphitheatre. There is a static grid above the stage (made out of rectangulare tubing) with 12 static led strips. There is a front of house position with some old leko's, two moving head washes, and two moving head spots. There is also a box boom position, each with a few leko's and a moving head wash. The space is running some unbranded wireless dmx (I found something that looks the same for about $50 on amazon) to the front of house position, and to the grid position. When I spoke to the "Venue Manager" who is in charge of all the lighting and audio he obviously had no idea what he was doing. He was unable to answer simple questions about the space like what are the address's of the dimmers and fixtures, and where are the wireless DMX receivers, are the house lights dmx, etc.

I went and toured the space to answer my questions and while I was there he told me that some of the lights have issues, like they lose control of them, or they flash while moving etc. Upon closer inspection all of the dmx cable appears to be microphone cable, I found a 3 pin xlr (2fer) splitting one of the DMX runs, and all the over stage fixtures are zip tied to the "grid".

The plan was originally to focus and move some of the over stage fixtures, and re focus the leko's. I am now very concerned about touching the over stage washes as there would be no way to secure them again without just re-zip tieing them. And the control issues of the movers are deffinately dmx related.

This is a first for me as I am used to working in larger more profesional theater spaces. Does anyone have suggestions to deal with the reliability and safety issues? I was going to talk to the venue manager again to try and explain everything but at this point I don't think they are willing to fix anything as he was very uninterested when I was telling him the first time...

Nice coat of fire ?

Hey! Sounds like quite the situation you've got going on.
First of all, I'd like to say that the only time you should be using wireless DMX is if it is simply not possible to reach the fixtures with a cable in their current position. You never know when and where interference may come from (and not to mention - you won't have an audience until it's show time. That's a lot of new RF-transmitting devices that weren't in the space during testing!) and it's not worth risking a potential failure in your show because of a bargain bin wireless system when a $30 cable would've solved the issue. This applies ESPECIALLY for generic wireless DMX systems such as the one you have. They just introduce way too many points of failure. Your wireless DMX system very well could be to blame for the issues you have described, such as control loss or random flashes.

Another point of failure will most likely be the XLR cables. Although DMX technically utilizes "XLR" connectors (both 3 and 5-pin), the cable internals can vary significantly. XLR and DMX have different shielding requirements, so one may be more susceptible to interference. This can also cause control loss and random flashes. Interference can be introduced into the system by many, many things so it's better to use the proper hardware instead of trying to eliminate sources of interference.

Another point of failure may be the splitter. DMX requires active splitters, kind of like an ethernet switch. There's a couple different terms, but they most commonly go by Opto-Splitter or DMX Splitter/Amplifier. You can't just solder two lines together and expect good consistent results. Doing so can introduce noise also weakens the signal.

Overall, I can almost guarantee that the control loss you are facing is directly attributed to the wireless DMX system dropping out. The flickering can be caused by any number of the things you described. Cables, wireless, splitter, etc. Another issue that can cause flickering is the integrity of the DMX signal itself. The more fixtures you connect on one DMX run as well as the length of the DMX run can drastically affect operation. A good rule of thumb is to never run over ~300' without boosting the signal (with an opto-splitter or similar), and never run more than 32 fixtures on one line of DMX. Breaking either of these rules can also introduce interference.

Also, lights should only ever be attached to rated rigging hardware such as truss, schedule 40 pipe or a batten with clamps directly attached to the fixture. They should also always have a safety cable secured from the fixture to a secure spot on the rig. If your lights are hung with zip ties, they need to come down immediately. This poses a massive safety hazard and could seriously harm someone if not worse. If you don't have the proper hardware to safely rig fixtures, then put them on the ground.

Just walk away, Renée
You won't see me follow you back home
Now, as the rain beats down upon my weary eyes
For me it cries

I'm also of the mind of just walk away. There are just those projects that you initially agree to and once you dig into the details you realize they just aren't worth it. You're going to be spending more time ringing this out and fighting the battle on safety than there are hours in your day.

LxNick said:

Hey! Sounds like quite the situation you've got going on.
First of all, I'd like to say that the only time you should be using wireless DMX is if it is simply not possible to reach the fixtures with a cable in their current position. You never know when and where interference may come from (and not to mention - you won't have an audience until it's show time. That's a lot of new RF-transmitting devices that weren't in the space during testing!) and it's not worth risking a potential failure in your show because of a bargain bin wireless system when a $30 cable would've solved the issue. This applies ESPECIALLY for generic wireless DMX systems such as the one you have. They just introduce way too many points of failure. Your wireless DMX system very well could be to blame for the issues you have described, such as control loss or random flashes.

Another point of failure will most likely be the XLR cables. Although DMX technically utilizes "XLR" connectors (both 3 and 5-pin), the cable internals can vary significantly. XLR and DMX have different shielding requirements, so one may be more susceptible to interference. This can also cause control loss and random flashes. Interference can be introduced into the system by many, many things so it's better to use the proper hardware instead of trying to eliminate sources of interference.

Another point of failure may be the splitter. DMX requires active splitters, kind of like an ethernet switch. There's a couple different terms, but they most commonly go by Opto-Splitter or DMX Splitter/Amplifier. You can't just solder two lines together and expect good consistent results. Doing so can introduce noise also weakens the signal.

Overall, I can almost guarantee that the control loss you are facing is directly attributed to the wireless DMX system dropping out. The flickering can be caused by any number of the things you described. Cables, wireless, splitter, etc. Another issue that can cause flickering is the integrity of the DMX signal itself. The more fixtures you connect on one DMX run as well as the length of the DMX run can drastically affect operation. A good rule of thumb is to never run over ~300' without boosting the signal (with an opto-splitter or similar), and never run more than 32 fixtures on one line of DMX. Breaking either of these rules can also introduce interference.

Also, lights should only ever be attached to rated rigging hardware such as truss, schedule 40 pipe or a batten with clamps directly attached to the fixture. They should also always have a safety cable secured from the fixture to a secure spot on the rig. If your lights are hung with zip ties, they need to come down immediately. This poses a massive safety hazard and could seriously harm someone if not worse. If you don't have the proper hardware to safely rig fixtures, then put them on the ground.

Click to expand...

Yes I understand all of this, the problem is that this is NOT my facility, and I've never worked in a facility that has been set up this way. I know all the ways to fix it. Any suggestions on what you would do if you were hired to work in this space.

I would consider walking away from the job, and/or warn the client to find a different venue. The equipment doesn't work and the only way it will work is if the venue is willing to spend money to fix it, and you can't do any "design" without a working system. Since your client has no budget, that means you can't even rent the most basic, portable equipment to do the show with.

Look at the rental contract. What does the venue promise to provide for your client. You can only enforce what is stated in the contract.

I wound up in a similar situation. The show was a New Year's Eve event in a terrible, municipal convention hall. All of their lekos had burned out lamps. At least half of the grid circuits were dead from a fried patch panel, and the dimmer rack was dead. I had to rent a console and dimmers, and spent a day on a genie lift to get just a basic wash working. The venue staff had no interest in making the show a success and I wound up fixing their junk enough to get the show done. All of that work was a side distraction from my primary job of doing a live radio broadcast on NPR. I worked myself into being sick for a week after it was done.

JackP said:

Yes I understand all of this, the problem is that this is NOT my facility, and I've never worked in a facility that has been set up this way. I know all the ways to fix it. Any suggestions on what you would do if you were hired to work in this space.

Click to expand...

Quit. Explain why to whomever hired you. Take the expense money, refund the design fee and get the hell outta Dodge.

Yeah, unless you absolutely need the money, this has all sorts of "nope" signs to it. I know it's a sin to turn down work, but do you really want more work from this facility or people who are willing to work with this facility?

I would not suggest walking away. Instead just figure out what you can do with the working / safe equipment you have available. it sounds like you have some incandescent lekos. use them and ignore the moving head wash fixtures. Don’t move anything over stage ( zip ties. I shudder ).
make sure you set expectations with your client that the venue does not have much working equipment.

There is DMX capable microphone cable. It should say something like "RS-485 rated" on the jacket.

I suggest you make a written list of safety issues and functional issues. Try not to make broad statements of danger, but state what you see. Note where the problems are simply not up to industry standards (missing safety cables) and where they are likely to cause trouble during your show. (cracking zip ties, uncontrollable fixtures) Possibly recommend a thorough safety inspection. Such a list can also be forwarded to the facility owners.

Such a list can be discussed with both the facility and your client. Perhaps with the manager first so you appear friendly. With your client have the contract as @FMEng said. If done calmly with an eye to finding solutions you might develop a path forward. You will certainly get much clearer idea of those you'd be working with. That's the time to decide to stick or run. Unless you aren't comfortable walking under those fixtures, then just run.

JChenault said:

I would not suggest walking away. Instead just figure out what you can do with the working / safe equipment you have available. it sounds like you have some incandescent lekos. use them and ignore the moving head wash fixtures. Don’t move anything over stage ( zip ties. I shudder ).
make sure you set expectations with your client that the venue does not have much working equipment.

Click to expand...

This is exactly how you lose a client.
You will deliver a substandard product and in the end they won't understand why.

avkid said:

This is exactly how you lose a client.
You will deliver a substandard product and in the end they won't understand why.

Click to expand...

I have to post in agreement as I have learned this lesson the hard way. Not necessarily a paying client as it was a volunteer gig, but it did cause my relationship with an acquaintance to become strained. I have worked very hard in my own facility to create a safe and predictable technical environment. My acquaintance was impressed by my work in this theatre (of which I know like the back of my hand) and really wanted me to do a show for them at a small venue in a neighboring town. Well, their theatre had a steaming pile of garbage substandard, electrically questionable, and poorly thought-out lighting system, complete with discontinued DJ software as lighting control, but I took it on anyway. It went as one would expect (not terrible, but only o.k.) and it was ultimately a waste of my time and theirs.

Every show can present a learning opportunity. This one, for me, would have been to save myself the heartache and politely (but firmly) decline.

There are a lot of interesting and useful ways to address the problems with the electrical and control system that could possibly be worth your and your production's time. However, that stops at the rigging and safety points you've pointed out. Doubtless you would find more once you really started digging into it.

Would your show probably be "fine"? Yes, that rig has been up for an unknown amount of time and they've "never had a problem before". The moment there's a problem while you're onsite working, or even immediately after, it becomes your problem and your legal liability (as far as the lawyers are concerned). I would walk away with a spring in my step, after detailing in writing all the problems that you saw to both the facility and production.

JChenault said:

I would not suggest walking away. Instead just figure out what you can do with the working / safe equipment you have available. it sounds like you have some incandescent lekos. use them and ignore the moving head wash fixtures. Don’t move anything over stage ( zip ties. I shudder ).
make sure you set expectations with your client that the venue does not have much working equipment.

Click to expand...

None of these instruments secured by zip tie are safe, in any reality. Knowing the gear is hung in an unsafe manner and moving forward regardless opens up everyone in the building to being named in the lawsuit if one of these things falls.
Definitely walk away.

What Rigger? said:

None of these instruments secured by zip tie are safe, in any reality. Knowing the gear is hung in an unsafe manner and moving forward regardless opens up everyone in the building to being named in the lawsuit if one of these things falls.
Definitely walk away.

Click to expand...

So, in this case it's known (and been shared on the Internet, in fact).

Does walking away without expressly raising and documenting your concerns with the venue free you from lawsuits/responsibility?

Run away!

Contemplate whether you have enough personal liability insurance to cover you when something comes apart and burns the building down and lots of people die and their families sue you.


In a friends and family situation, it might be different. But this isn't that, as you explain it, it's a commercial for-hire situation. Much higher standards of liability there.