Control/Dimming Other console(s) with my personal "killer" features?

[JoelD]

My favorite and "go to" console has been the GrandMA for years.

I'm always interested and open to considering new consoles (or new versions of existing consoles) but throughout the years, even with some other great consoles coming along, there seems to have always been a few features the GrandMA would have at the time that would "kill" any possibility of me seriously considering changing my preferred console. (And it has always seemed to remain a step ahead for me and my preferences/needs/wants - as soon as other consoles would add the equivalent of my favorite GrandMA features, GrandMA would add new unique features that become my new favorites.)

Currently a couple of those personal "killer" features for me in the GrandMA are:
1) the Stage view - Most of the time I don't need or even want a full visualizer. But I love having an on-board simple live representation of the rig, both while programming and while running. Plus I love its "touch to focus" for movers.
2) RGB+ color mixing/picker - I love that it incorporates methods of including color attributes beyond just RGB (i.e. RGBA, RGBW, etc.) in its color mixing/picker.

Granted, everyone has their own personal preferences and so there are features of other consoles that they consider their personal "killer" features that keep them preferring those consoles over GrandMA or others. But those are a couple of mine (at this time), and I'm just curious if anyone can suggest another console that includes both of those features... I haven't found any, but maybe I've missed one (or more).

 

[np18358]

I think it depends on your particular use. GrandMa Consoles are great, but for a volunteer running a church service, it wouldn't be the best choice. That being said, I like ETC Ion/Gio for theatre (Element is also great for few movers). The color picker and easy options to match closely to any gel are great. My absolute favorite feature is the Magic Sheet (sounds similar to GrandMA Stage View). It's AWESOME! I wish the Element would let you do more than one. Otherwise, I usually set up one Large Sheet Depicting the Whole plot in instruments. That's great for when you are trying to create specific isolated effects, and you only now the group number of an instrument. I do another chart-type one with filled in colors organized by group according to use and such. Another one I often create is with Areas of Light, including front light High Side and Bax for each area, which is easy if I need to quickly highlight an area. I will also do sheet for specials, sometimes if it is a multi-Unit set show (i.e. Opera or plays), one per set. Once or twice when I have done mover heavy shows, I will do a sheet for just movers, including boxes that are tied to specific attributes and palettes. Something cool I saw he other day that made aligning/calibrating scrollers easy was a magic sheet with one box per scroller gel color, tied to a color palette which set a value for each instrument with a scroller. Also made it easy if he wanted to quickly bring all scrollers to one color. Besides the magic sheets and the color picker, I feel like everything else works well, and consistently, which makes it good enough for me.

 

[cbrandt]

The only other two consoles that you're going to get an onboard visualizer on are an Avo or a Chamsys. I haven't worked with the chamsys personally. The Avo stage view (at least in my experience working on Pearl Experts, no Pearl Expert Pros) is a bit clunky, but if you can get the right fixtures in there and set up, it works acceptably. No where near as integrated and seamless as GrandMAs, though.

I haven't found another console that does advanced color mixing nicely. Everyone that has pitched me a console that is supposed to do it, falls back to, "Well, if your fixture profile has an HSI channel that incorporates it, the console does a great job!" which is really just a cop out in saying that they don't include extra values.

ETCs magic sheets can give you a lot of live information, but you set them up, and they aren't a true visualizer, they just give an indication of what the light is doing. More like looking at a condensed version of your output screen. It does give you a lot of great options for selecting fixtures and palettes that you use often. It is a 2D representation, so no touch to focus options there.

 

[JoelD]

cbrandt - Yep. That's about what I've found.

I've seen some things I like and some better ways of handling some things in other consoles that might entice me to them... IF they just had a simple on-board visualizer and the RGBxxx color mixing. I'll just keep watching as consoles advance, maybe one of those will add those features - or maybe a console will come out with a feature that trumps those two for me and becomes my new "killer" feature.

 

[soundlight]

My weapon of choice is the MA as well. So much so that I purchased (for an unbelievably good price) a MA Series 1 UltraLight to gig with. Some of my primary features that I don't want to go without are:
-MAtricks - I've tried other consoles' grouping tools, but none of them are as good or as complete.
-QuiKeys (pre-defined Macros in MA2) - stuff I use all the time and can select on a per-show basis.
-Completely customizable layouts. I haven't found another console that really gives me the options that MA does as to laying out my screens as well as the variety of stuff you can put on them. And how easy it is to save/edit views for single/multiple screens. Very intuitive.
-Clone & import functionality. Fantastic. On MA2, there's a fantastic set of options for cloning. You can clone color from one group of fixtures, position from another, intensity from another. It's awesome.
-MA3D. Not just stage view, but the free companion full on visualizer program that I've used for hours at a time to pre-program shows from the comfort of my living room.

 

[Max Warasila]

I think it depends on your particular use. GrandMa Consoles are great, but for a volunteer running a church service, it wouldn't be the best choice. That being said, I like ETC Ion/Gio for theatre (Element is also great for few movers). The color picker and easy options to match closely to any gel are great. My absolute favorite feature is the Magic Sheet (sounds similar to GrandMA Stage View). It's AWESOME! I wish the Element would let you do more than one. Otherwise, I usually set up one Large Sheet Depicting the Whole plot in instruments. That's great for when you are trying to create specific isolated effects, and you only now the group number of an instrument. I do another chart-type one with filled in colors organized by group according to use and such. Another one I often create is with Areas of Light, including front light High Side and Bax for each area, which is easy if I need to quickly highlight an area. I will also do sheet for specials, sometimes if it is a multi-Unit set show (i.e. Opera or plays), one per set. Once or twice when I have done mover heavy shows, I will do a sheet for just movers, including boxes that are tied to specific attributes and palettes. Something cool I saw he other day that made aligning/calibrating scrollers easy was a magic sheet with one box per scroller gel color, tied to a color palette which set a value for each instrument with a scroller. Also made it easy if he wanted to quickly bring all scrollers to one color. Besides the magic sheets and the color picker, I feel like everything else works well, and consistently, which makes it good enough for me.

FWIW I'm running an Element and we can do a single magic sheet per screen as of v2.2 and can also have a magic sheet per layout window.

I've recently worked a few shows on the MA and it's so hard to go back to an Element and lose all the features that make programming a breeze. In the future, it's the MA for me - I work faster with MA on PC and a dongle than on an element.

 

[MikeJ]

I think Magic Sheets are more similar Layout Views in MA2, is a 2d layout that an be a representation of the plot, groups of fixtures, etc. any way you want organize it.

The other huge plus for the MA2 color picker is that you fixture can be RGBAW, CMY, one of those silly 7 color fixtures, or even just have a color wheel or gel scroler, and the color picker will still find the right color! (provided the info in the fixture profile is correct).

I know some people who love Vista; the timeline is very useful in some types of shows. I don't know any other console that offer anything close.

 

[Nsimmons]

I've recently worked a few shows on the MA and it's so hard to go back to an Element and lose all the features that make programming a breeze. In the future, it's the MA for me - I work faster with MA on PC and a dongle than on an element.

Comparing MA to Element is comparing apples with sausages.

The other huge plus for the MA2 color picker is that you fixture can be RGBAW, CMY, one of those silly 7 color fixtures, or even just have a color wheel or gel scroler, and the color picker will still find the right color! (provided the info in the fixture profile is correct).

I know some people who love Vista; the timeline is very useful in some types of shows. I don't know any other console that offer anything close.

Well MA, ETC and Vista all use the same colour picker raw data, so the MA colour picker is no better then on Eos family or anyone else that uses the same data. If MA started to use their own data maybe they'd have better results but they don't.

And the silly 7 colour fixtures are designed to give you the largest range of colours because they cover a much larger range of the colour spectrum. So if you need the best colour mixing, 7 silly colours are better then 3 or 4 or 5.

 

[MikeJ]

Comparing MA to Element is comparing apples with sausages.



Well MA, ETC and Vista all use the same colour picker raw data, so the MA colour picker is no better then on Eos family or anyone else that uses the same data. If MA started to use their own data maybe they'd have better results but they don't.

And the silly 7 colour fixtures are designed to give you the largest range of colours because they cover a much larger range of the colour spectrum. So if you need the best colour mixing, 7 silly colours are better then 3 or 4 or 5.

What raw data are you referring to? The MA has an HSB color picker that controls any number of LEDs, fixed color wheels, cmy flags seamlessly together. By dragging your finger across the spectrum and stopping on pink, it will put you leds in pink using on red and white diodes, your VL3000's will mix to the same pink using CMY, and you gel scrollers will stop on R34. All with one touch, even though they all use different parameters. It has a "Q" slider in the colorpicker that controls the incorporation of extra color features.

This result is dependent on data entered into the Grandma Fixture profile, so finding or building complete and accurate profiles is important. This is the same data used for the MA3D visualizer. MA fixture profiles are not used in any other console or software, to my knowledge.

 

[Nsimmons]

What raw data are you referring to? The MA has an HSB color picker that controls any number of LEDs, fixed color wheels, cmy flags seamlessly together. By dragging your finger across the spectrum and stopping on pink, it will put you leds in pink using on red and white diodes, your VL3000's will mix to the same pink using CMY, and you gel scrollers will stop on R34. All with one touch, even though they all use different parameters. It has a "Q" slider in the colorpicker that controls the incorporation of extra color features.

This result is dependent on data entered into the Grandma Fixture profile, so finding or building complete and accurate profiles is important. This is the same data used for the MA3D visualizer. MA fixture profiles are not used in any other console or software, to my knowledge.

ETC, MA 2 and Jands buy a fixture database from a 3rd party company, this makes sense because the amount of new fixtures which come on the market would mean a full time job for 2 or 3 people in each company. Although I don't know how often MA update their fixture library from the MA programmers I know they make their own fixture.

Dragging your finger across the Eos family consoles and picking pink will give you the same results because they are working to the same HS values! Don't worry, ETC they don't use MA data, they know a little about colour because they make silly 7 colour products!!

Eos family doesn't have a 3D visualizer but I use another visulizer I think it's called 'the stage'!

 

[MikeJ]

I figured with the selador line, there was probably some more seamless integration.

I'm not sure how it works exactly, but to me it seems like many of MA fixtures are imported and auto created via some automated program based on a spread sheet or something like that. This is my assumption based on some very poorly created profiles, that are so bad, no human would have done it. Is there a specific 3rd party company that complies fixtures?

Also MA does have very good support, MA/ACT do have people who create some profiles on staff, and they often source more gracefully created profiles from the community, and include them in fairly frequent updates. I often create my own to fit my particular needs, its actually pretty easy.

I have not seen it on ETC but it could be there, but on ma, you can use HSI as a color picker(color wheel, but rectangular), HSB, CMY, and RGB faders at the same time, gel Swatch book, or Raw faders. It sounds like Most modern color controls can do all of these in some way, its just a matter of layout, and personal taste. Personally I just use the color picker anyway, so it would not be a big change for me.

The Big difference for me using MA vs most other desks, is the number of Executor(playback) faders and buttons, and the ability of assign each button and fader to almost any behavior.

Many desks are still limited to FLASH, GO, GoBack, Toggle, and a few more. But the MA has about 40 different functions to choose from.
The priority settings, tracking, and move in black functions are also incredibly in depth.
I am not saying that these functions are not available on other platforms, but that these are things that I would need to look for is switching to another desk

 

[Nsimmons]

These discussions are always completely pointless, MA people are always going to point to MA strengths, Eos people are going to point to our strengths, Hog, Avo, Chamsys etc etc are going to do the same.

If someone that knows MA really well goes and uses another console they're not going to like it! I know Eos really well, I don't use MA or other consoles because I'm much slower on those console and therefore I don't like it!

The 'Killer' feature on every console is the person behind it, otherwise it's just a really expensive calculator!

 

[JoelD]

I'm sorry this discussion got a little away from my original question. But, for me, the parts of the discussion that stick to the original question are not pointless at all.

In the way I like to work and how I operate I really get significant benefit from the "Stage" view on the MA consoles as well the advanced colormixing of RGBA, RGBAW, RGBxxx... instruments. (Along with numerous other features that I already know that other consoles have similar features.) I asked the original question because I would LOVE to know if I'm just unaware other consoles out there that also have an on-board visualizer... not a 2d layout view (i.e. ETC Magic Sheets, the MA "Layout" view, etc.), and not an off-board visualizer (i.e. Capture Polar, Show Designer, MAs 3D, etc.), as well as equivalent advanced RGBxxxx colormixing.

Although this discussion did get a little off topic, it does sound like - as I had been finding on my own - there is not another console that has something like MA's "Stage" view on board.

I am glad to know that. So I now know that I wasn't just unaware of another console that has something similar and therefore might have been missing out on a "better" (for me and my preferences and the way I work) console. So for me, this discussion has been helpful (i.e had a point).

Thanks to all who chimed in.

 

[Max Warasila]

I will tell you one thing that pisses me off on the MA vs. Eos - the palettas don't mix right unless you use the raw faders. The Eos seems to automatically do that for me, so I can just use a color picker.

 

[JoelD]

I think I should have titled this thread much differently. My title probably contributed to how this discussion went so far away from my original basic question of: "Are there other consoles that have something similar to these two features that I like?".

Anyway... my original question has been answered to my satisfaction.

Thanks everyone.

 

[Nsimmons]

Well to answer the original questions.

Stage view, Avo had this feature a long time ago (15+ years), I'm not sure if that is still available in the current Titan software, I've not used a avo in a very long time. It also looks like Chamsys have a built in vis and maybe more.

Colour mixing, yes almost all console can mix colours in RGB mode, although I personally don't see the point, when you add Red they are just adding equal amounts of Yellow & Magenta on a CMY fixture, it's not that clever and I prefer to mix in native colours.

 

[soundlight]

Avo Titan OS consoles have a line-based stage view. @Pie4Weebl has just jumped from MA over to Titan on his brand new Avo Quartz, maybe he could tell you more about that. From what I understand, Avo has done some really good stuff with Titan. @Pie4Weebl also said that the Titan's Pixel Mapper was pretty spiffy and it had some other pretty useful unique features as well.

 

[MikeJ]

I will tell you one thing that pisses me off on the MA vs. Eos - the palettas don't mix right unless you use the raw faders. The Eos seems to automatically do that for me, so I can just use a color picker.

This is not an issue with the Console, but with the information in the fixture profile. You either need to find ore create a profile that has the correct info. Sometimes it is as simple as inverting the cmy channels, other times it is more detailed in setting up individual colors in a color wheel.

Well to answer the original questions.

Stage view, Avo had this feature a long time ago (15+ years), I'm not sure if that is still available in the current Titan software, I've not used a avo in a very long time. It also looks like Chamsys have a built in vis and maybe more.

Colour mixing, yes almost all console can mix colours in RGB mode, although I personally don't see the point, when you add Red they are just adding equal amounts of Yellow & Magenta on a CMY fixture, it's not that clever and I prefer to mix in native colours.

Avo offers a similar feature, chamsys may as well(at least an external visualizer).

Its not about Mixing CMY as RGB or vise versa; it is the Ability to mix ANY color attributes of ANY number of DIFFERENT fixtures, at the same time. eg. LED, cmy movers, and scrollers, all together, ariving at the same color.


To the original intent of this post, maybe try, What Consoles will I grow to like, If I enjoy features such as X,Y,Z?

 

[Max Warasila]

This is not an issue with the Console, but with the information in the fixture profile. You either need to find ore create a profile that has the correct info. Sometimes it is as simple as inverting the cmy channels, other times it is more detailed in setting up individual colors in a color wheel.

I'm referring to the Selador Palettas which don't have an HSI or RGB mode. I've tried a bunch of work arounds, but only the ETC profile on the ETC board seems to do the trick.

With that said I have no problem mixing with the raw faders and tend to do so anyway.

 

[MikeJ]

I'm referring to the Selador Palettas which don't have an HSI or RGB mode. I've tried a bunch of work arounds, but only the ETC profile on the ETC board seems to do the trick.

With that said I have no problem mixing with the raw faders and tend to do so anyway.

Interesting. I have never had the opportunity to use Selador fixtures. Just now looking at the Desire D22 luster, there are 25 different options for default fixture profiles. I guess there are some fixtures that are very specialized, and may require a little more end user work to get the result you want. That said, even with the color picker doing a pretty good job, I still fine tune each fixture type, per color preset. No system is is perfect and Sometimes even though the color may be correct on a fixture, I will adjust in favor of more output rather than saturation, depending on the situation, so there is always some individual adjustment.

The big Plus for the MA system, is in touring, where you substitute a bunch of different fixtures, and the console can make them almost spot on to your last show. In a complicated show, the MA can save several hours of updating.