New wiring

[MisterTim]

I have the opportunity this summer to put in the wiring we need from booth to stage. Our booth is in the balcony 100' away from the stage and running wire is, to put it nicely, a huge pain in the butt. Imagine 50' of crawling on 90 year old chickenwire plaster and another 10' of inchworming, all the while trying to drag wires. And hoping that the ceiling holds up, as you're 40' in the air. So I have one shot at this, and basically a clean slate from my boss as to what wiring I put in.

550 seat high school auditorium. Mostly the usual concerts, musicals, and dance recitals common to high schools. Occasionally a touring gig comes through, but not often.

We currently have:
25 mic inputs
5 mic inputs into the automatic mixing system
2 aux returns, both powered for monitors

What I plan to add:
3 RG59
2 HDMI
2 VGA
3 mic inputs (to max out the 28-channel snake)
3 auto mic inputs (to max out the auto mixer)
2 aux returns, unpowered

The video lines are for giving presentations from the stage and sending camera feeds backstage, both of which we've previously been unable to do effectively. The HDMI and VGA will be run over CAT5e/6.

So what else should/could I put in?

 

[Studio]

Pull as much cat 5 or 6 as you can. It's useful for everything.

 

[MisterTim]

Pull as much cat 5 or 6 as you can. It's useful for everything.

I could pull 50 lines if I wanted to, it's like $0.08/foot for Cat5e, but what would I use it for?

 

[Footer]

I would do an 8 pull of cat6. It could be used for DMX, lighting data, audio data, who knows what will be rolling out in the next 10 years.

 

[erosing]

Agreed, you should put cat6 in now as long as your running lines, someone will thank you later, if not yourself.

 

[MisterTim]

cat6 as opposed to cat5e? 6 is like double the price, iirc.

 

[Footer]

cat6 as opposed to cat5e? 6 is like double the price, iirc.

Its not that bad. It is a pain in the rear to terminate and that is where a lot of the expense goes on the install market. However, anymore it is what is specked if you are going to pull anything in walls. Might as well bite the bullet now in an attempt to future proof yourself. You can get 100' ft on amazon for a hundred bucks, and that is not shopping around.

 

[MisterTim]

Its not that bad. It is a pain in the rear to terminate and that is where a lot of the expense goes on the install market. However, anymore it is what is specked if you are going to pull anything in walls. Might as well bite the bullet now in an attempt to future proof yourself. You can get 100' ft on amazon for a hundred bucks, and that is not shopping around.

Ah hell that's a horrible price, we get 1000' for $150. Even Belden cat6 is only $250. I ran a few miles of cat6 when we renovated the building, I know what it's like to terminate, I just didn't know if there was any benefit in this situation.

Meh I'll just go with cat6. 8 extra lines it is.

On a related note, is there any benefit to running the video lines over RG59 instead of cat6? Besides cost, which may or may not be more with the associated baluns (I haven't looked).

 

[venuetech]

consider creating a ring chase to support these cables

it would be best to keep data separate from analog
leave a pull string in the chase so you only need to access each end when you need to add a cable.

a wiring fish pole would come in handy in a tight space like that.

 

[Footer]

Ah hell that's a horrible price, we get 1000' for $150. Even Belden cat6 is only $250. I ran a few miles of cat6 when we renovated the building, I know what it's like to terminate, I just didn't know if there was any benefit in this situation.

Meh I'll just go with cat6. 8 extra lines it is.

On a related note, is there any benefit to running the video lines over RG59 instead of cat6? Besides cost, which may or may not be more with the associated baluns (I haven't looked).

Sorry, that was actually a 1000' for $106.
Amazon.com: CAT6, UTP, Bulk Cable, Solid, 500MHz, 23 AWG, Gray, 1000 ft: Electronics

 

[epimetheus]

I'd run RG6 rather than RG59. I know RG59 is frowned upon in the cable tv business these days, and when it comes to running video down coax, the cable tv business is a pretty good metric.

 

[Sean]

It depends on the scale of the wiring project, and if you have the expected gear coming in that would use it, but fiber would be good.

We have clients asking for fiber patches though our facility. Now, to be fair, these clients are television production companies, and larger corporate clients. But, if you're doing a decent amount of mid-scale rentals, and you expect the facility to be used for 20 more years w/o a large-scale renovation, it may well be worth it.

Other than fiber, as pretty much everyone has said, run as much Cat-5/6 as you can reasonably afford. Because of how much of it is out in the world, more and more things are being adapted to be able to run over it.

--Sean

 

[jwl868]

...Imagine 50' of crawling on 90 year old chickenwire plaster and another 10' of inchworming, all the while trying to drag wires. And hoping that the ceiling holds up, as you're 40' in the air...

That can’t be a good idea. I didn’t think that type of ceiling could support (or was meant to support) a person. Surely there’s an alternative method.

Joe

 

[museav]

Terms like mic input, auto mixer input, aux returns, etc. relate to the use and not to the cable. Would the lines run for the automixer be physically different cable than the other mic lines? Would mic and line runs use the same or different cable?

Would it be better to do something like use the existing automixer lines for other use and run a dedicated multi-pair for the automixer? How about using AES compatible cable for the new mic and/or line runs so that it could also be used for AES digital audio?

Don't run just enough, always run more. If you need 28 mic lines run 32 or so. If you need 4 UTP lines for video run 6 or 8. Leave spares of sufficient length that they could be used to replace any lines you normally use without having to pull new cable. And don't necessarily limit yourself to your current gear. What happens if you decide in a year or two to get a new console that supports more inputs and monitor mixes? Before you start pulling cable you might want to do some long term planning and invest now in the infrastructure to support any envisioned future growth.

Think about cable routing, for example does it make more sense to pull everything for the stage though one common point rather than via multiple paths? Does it make sense to pass though some intermediate junction boxes, providing a place to potentially splice, reroute or terminate the cables in the future?

Watch code issues. Details such as independently supporting the cable, using plenum or riser rated cable where appropriate, etc. should be followed. Also keep practical issues such as cable separation and how/where you run relative to power and lights in mind

 

[MisterTim]

consider creating a ring chase to support these cable
it would be best to keep data separate from analog
leave a pull string in the chase so you only need to access each end when you need to add a cable.

a wiring fish pole would come in handy in a tight space like that.

Wiring is my job, so I do know how to do this, thanks. I have a fish pole and fish tape, and fortunately the previous installers left a pull string in the part I can't reach.

We have clients asking for fiber patches though our facility. Now, to be fair, these clients are television production companies, and larger corporate clients. But, if you're doing a decent amount of mid-scale rentals, and you expect the facility to be used for 20 more years w/o a large-scale renovation, it may well be worth it.

We do rarely any rentals, and I can't see any possible use for this any time in the future.

That can’t be a good idea. I didn’t think that type of ceiling could support (or was meant to support) a person. Surely there’s an alternative method.

The alternative method would involve many feet of concrete, 150' of new conduit, and a rather roundabout method. The ceiling is fine as long as I stay on the supports. I'm laying 2x10 as I go, there are plenty left up there from the last time people were in the crawlspace.

Terms like mic input, auto mixer input, aux returns, etc. relate to the use and not to the cable. Would the lines run for the automixer be physically different cable than the other mic lines?

Yes they are physically different.

Would mic and line runs use the same or different cable?

Same, unless there's some reason to do otherwise?

Would it be better to do something like use the existing automixer lines for other use and run a dedicated multi-pair for the automixer? How about using AES compatible cable for the new mic and/or line runs so that it could also be used for AES digital audio?

To the first part, no, because of the different locations of the jacks onstage. To the second, it would be a lot cheaper to run AES over cat6; is there any benefit to using AES cable?

Watch code issues. Details such as independently supporting the cable, using plenum or riser rated cable where appropriate, etc. should be followed. Also keep practical issues such as cable separation and how/where you run relative to power and lights in mind

If you saw how the existing cables are run, you'd probably have a fit. 24 channel and 12 channel audio snakes, powered speaker lines, ethernet, coax (TV), intercom, and digital clock sync are all just tossed on top of the ceiling over the power and lights. I am REALLY surprised we have never had noise issues through that huge mess. If there is enough slack I will be fixing this as I put in the new lines.

My coworkers think I'm crazy, but I love being the one in the crawlspace distorting my body into strange positions to pull wire through old buildings.

As usual, thanks for all your help guys

 

[Chris15]

Install the fibre, ethernet will most likely want it within the next 10 years, who know what else will. You may choose to leave it unterminated, but fibre is cheap. You may even need to use it now to run your HDMI depending on the distances involved and the resolution desired. Likewise Cat 6 or 6A will give more options in the next few years versus 5e.

You've said the mixer lines are/ will be physically different cables, how are they different?

If you are going to install audio multipair, just make it AES grade. You can't run a phantom powered mic on Cat5 easily, you can do it on AES cable. You will also get better noise immunity from AES cable, the reason why an AES multipair has individual shields...

The segregation rules are there for the safety of people working both in the spaces and those who are exposed to the ends of those cables under fault conditions.

I'm sure your chiropractor will also love you contorting your body all the time...

 

[museav]

I'm not sure you really got my point. What makes a run a mic run or a line run? It's the signal, not the cable, and the same cable could be used for either application. So don't limit yourself to looking at runs, including existing lines, as being specifically mic or line level, they are more likely simply a run from point A to point B and could be used for either signal type. That can open up more possibilities. For example, if a termination point currently has four mic and two line level connections on a single multipair cable and you want to add two mics, it might make more sense to use the two pairs currently serving the line level connections for the added mic connections and run new lines to the existing line level connections, thus providing greater separation of the two signal levels.

I have a little different take than some of the others regarding CAT5/5e/6. For Ethernet communications I would agree with CAT6 but for audio and video over UTP (actual audio and video and not networked such as CobraNet, DANTE, EtherSound, etc.) CAT5 is preferable. Part of the higher specs for CAT6 involves greater variation in twist rates between the individual pairs which in turn relates to greater skew. Especially for video, skew can become a problem for long runs, requiring the use of interfaces with skew compensation. So maybe run both CAT5 and CAT6.

 

[MisterTim]

Install the fibre, ethernet will most likely want it within the next 10 years, who know what else will. You may choose to leave it unterminated, but fibre is cheap.

According to the makers of the HDMI baluns, I can run 1080p 100 feet over 2 cat5e cables, 1080i 165 feet, and 720p 200 feet. So if I want actual 1080p, which is probably a good idea, I can't just use cat5/6.

None of our usual suppliers have bulk fiber, do you have any recommendations for where to get it?

You've said the mixer lines are/ will be physically different cables, how are they different?

The automixer lines go straight from the stage to the automixer (through the terminal strip); the rest of the inputs go from the stage through the terminal strip to the split 28ch snake, and from there to the mixer. I could theoretically just use the same inputs, but this is how it's currently wired, and in a school it's hard enough to make people understand things, so I'm leaving the inputs separate.

Part of the higher specs for CAT6 involves greater variation in twist rates between the individual pairs which in turn relates to greater skew. Especially for video, skew can become a problem for long runs, requiring the use of interfaces with skew compensation. So maybe run both CAT5 and CAT6.

Googling this seems to show a consensus that 200 feet is the limit without using low-skew cable. I'm not going to be above 200 feet (probably around 150-160), so is this worth it for the extra PITA installing both cat5e and 6?

I'm not sure you really got my point. What makes a run a mic run or a line run? It's the signal, not the cable, and the same cable could be used for either application. So don't limit yourself to looking at runs, including existing lines, as being specifically mic or line level, they are more likely simply a run from point A to point B and could be used for either signal type.

I do understand your point, I was 'naming' the connections for clarity.

 

[museav]

According to the makers of the HDMI baluns, I can run 1080p 100 feet over 2 cat5e cables, 1080i 165 feet, and 720p 200 feet. So if I want actual 1080p, which is probably a good idea, I can't just use cat5/6.

Googling this seems to show a consensus that 200 feet is the limit without using low-skew cable. I'm not going to be above 200 feet (probably around 150-160), so is this worth it for the extra PITA installing both cat5e and 6?

You seem to have somewhat answered your own question, according to your information skew wouldn't be an issue at the distances possible for the resolution desired. However, the first three manufacturers I looked up claim over 150' and up to 200' for 1080p using their HDMI over UTP products and their cable, so you could possibly support your 150'-160' runs over UTP just not with generic CAT cable.

 

[Chris15]

None of our usual suppliers have bulk fiber, do you have any recommendations for where to get it?

Sorry, wouldn't have a clue where to get such things in the States. Try electrical wholesalers or find a data cabler and ask them who their supplier is.

Skip the step of running signals over Cat5 and just jump into running it on IP, it really has stopped being the future and now represents the present, except perhaps in video... Audio has Dante amongst others, DMX has Artnet, again amongst others, etc. etc.