New Clearcom Wireless- Freeespeak II or Edge?

[firewater88]

OK, looking to replace our aging (beyond aging really) Telex wireless com units. I have 2 of the old VHF base units and several beltpacks that just need to be replaced. I have gotten the OK to price out a new system, well aware of the costs.
I would probably do 12 beltpacks and I think 3 transceiver antennas.
I know the Edge system is a bit more, but is it worth it? Does the Dante integration make a big difference? I could easily hool that into my system. Is the 5ghz worth it as well?
I know that space/building/interference has a lot to do with it and no one here could say oh yeah, go with XXX freq. We have mostly 5ghz wifi throughout the building. I don't need wireless com everywhere, but maybe close to all of the main floor. Thinking one transceiver on stage, one in the back of the auditorium in a booth (to hopefully get lobby behind/below that area) and maybe one in the studio across the hall. I know that doesn't mean much to most, but wondering if anyone has had real world experience with these on different MGHz and can help with the coverage. Just worried about total coverage while ordering products.
I will still be utilizing the 4 channels of 2 wire from our current Clearcom base (that will get replaced with the wireless one) that feeds all of the tech areas.

Any help would be appreciated... Thanks!

 

[FMEng]

I think you'd have the least chance for interference in the 1.9 GHz band, which is mostly used for cordless phones, AFAIK. With 2.4 and 5 Ghz, you are competing with all of the wifi systems in the neighborhood, plus devices that might walk in the door, like wireless guitar systems.

 

[themuzicman]

FreeSpeak Edge is a decent product, but for most instances in a small-medium sized theater it's not going to be worth the hassle, cost, or complication at this moment in time over 1.9 FSII. Clearcom has promised future product updates that will make Edge more robust, but never buy a product on the promise of future updates. Edge makes a lot more sense if you're integrating with an Arcadia base station for all of your intercom needs, as opposed to a standalone product.

The biggest issue at the moment is that Edge cannot hop channels in use, this means you need to go into your 5ghz wireless networks and disable the active
channels that you want Edge to occupy. Doing this in your instance would most likely be a one-time pain and not a dealbreaker. As someone who does intercom full-time and is doing this in dozens of venues a month, working with in-house IT at every place this is a HUGE pain point at the moment. My second biggest issue is that battery life is kind of inconsistent, though with every firmware release it has gotten more stable and predictable.

The 1.9 TCVR's have decent wall penetration. For 12 users I'd probably throw 2 in a stage-house, 1 in the auditorium proper (balc rail/spot booth), and 1 in a lobby. The 5gHz TCVR's have absolutely awful wall penetration and have issues penetrating concrete walls which makes a 5gHz deployment a bit more challenging. If you're working entirely line-of-site you'll be good, but with a 1.9 system I'd place one in a booth to also hit the lobby, on the 5gHz stuff you'll need a dedicated Booth unit and a dedicated Lobby unit.

Finally, my biggest gripe is still the lack of a software based CCM - it is still entirely web based. This is most likely fine for a resident venue, but for someone doing rental com I want to program the night before and walk into a venue prepared. With a product that costs this much there needs to be more investment in the software infrastructure that supports it. That being said, the Edge CCM is a little more refined than the FSII which is a nice improvememt.

Dante - Most likely not too useful for most users in small-medium sized theaters. At most you may patch a program feed into it, if in the future you plan on expanding and using Unity Connect instead of getting an LQ to use Agent-IC, Dante integration becomes more important and very useful. About the only other novelty I can think of is maybe your FOH Audio person wants to just pass intercom into their desk and use a TB mic to talk back to wireless users - however for most smaller users Dante integration is a novelty and not a make or break feature. For those doing a lot of 4WR tie-in's Dante integration is VERY useful but the average theater isn't trying to pass a ton of 4WR audio. In my world, this Dante integration is super useful to pass 4WR from a broadcast truck as most trucks use Dante-based RTS Matrix intercom.

AES67 - If you go the Edge route you'll need to make sure AES67 traffic can flow over your network, which means in addition to the Intercom upgrades you may be looking at network infrastrucutre upgrades in order to get your system up and running.

 

[firewater88]

FreeSpeak Edge is a decent product, but for most instances in a small-medium sized theater it's not going to be worth the hassle, cost, or complication at this moment in time over 1.9 FSII. Clearcom has promised future product updates that will make Edge more robust, but never buy a product on the promise of future updates. Edge makes a lot more sense if you're integrating with an Arcadia base station for all of your intercom needs, as opposed to a standalone product.

The biggest issue at the moment is that Edge cannot hop channels in use, this means you need to go into your 5ghz wireless networks and disable the active
channels that you want Edge to occupy. Doing this in your instance would most likely be a one-time pain and not a dealbreaker. As someone who does intercom full-time and is doing this in dozens of venues a month, working with in-house IT at every place this is a HUGE pain point at the moment. My second biggest issue is that battery life is kind of inconsistent, though with every firmware release it has gotten more stable and predictable.

The 1.9 TCVR's have decent wall penetration. For 12 users I'd probably throw 2 in a stage-house, 1 in the auditorium proper (balc rail/spot booth), and 1 in a lobby. The 5gHz TCVR's have absolutely awful wall penetration and have issues penetrating concrete walls which makes a 5gHz deployment a bit more challenging. If you're working entirely line-of-site you'll be good, but with a 1.9 system I'd place one in a booth to also hit the lobby, on the 5gHz stuff you'll need a dedicated Booth unit and a dedicated Lobby unit.

Finally, my biggest gripe is still the lack of a software based CCM - it is still entirely web based. This is most likely fine for a resident venue, but for someone doing rental com I want to program the night before and walk into a venue prepared. With a product that costs this much there needs to be more investment in the software infrastructure that supports it. That being said, the Edge CCM is a little more refined than the FSII which is a nice improvememt.

Dante - Most likely not too useful for most users in small-medium sized theaters. At most you may patch a program feed into it, if in the future you plan on expanding and using Unity Connect instead of getting an LQ to use Agent-IC, Dante integration becomes more important and very useful. About the only other novelty I can think of is maybe your FOH Audio person wants to just pass intercom into their desk and use a TB mic to talk back to wireless users - however for most smaller users Dante integration is a novelty and not a make or break feature. For those doing a lot of 4WR tie-in's Dante integration is VERY useful but the average theater isn't trying to pass a ton of 4WR audio. In my world, this Dante integration is super useful to pass 4WR from a broadcast truck as most trucks use Dante-based RTS Matrix intercom.

AES67 - If you go the Edge route you'll need to make sure AES67 traffic can flow over your network, which means in addition to the Intercom upgrades you may be looking at network infrastrucutre upgrades in order to get your system up and running.

THIS is exactly what I was looking for... real world experience with the products. Thanks.

Since this would be a venue install (most likely by me) I think I will plan on the FSII1.9. Edge seems maybe a bit overkill for my venue and there is a lot of concrete walls and other obstacles in the venue. I still think that 4 should cover and I do have lots of Cat6 run to many locations so it should be mostly plug and play with ports where I would need them around the venue. If I went 5ghz I wold probably need way more trcvrs just for even coverage around the venue, especially for mine when I am bouncing between FOH, backstage, studio and aud for shows.

This is a large purchase and hoping to go the right way with it for the future. I do like trying to buy the top in technology to future proof myself since these upgrades don't happen all too often. It seems that locally everyone mostly has the 1.9s as well.

 

[themuzicman]

I do like trying to buy the top in technology to future proof myself since these upgrades don't happen all too often. It seems that locally everyone mostly has the 1.9s as well.

If you want the top in technology and you have a budget, a Riedel Bolero standalone system is the move

 

[firewater88]

If you want the top in technology and you have a budget, a Riedel Bolero standalone system is the move

I remeber loking at that system a few years back. It does look amazing! I mean the belt pack has a bottle opener on it! just in case....
I think the big turn off for me is that is it can't interface with 2 wire, at least not that I have seen. We still have quite a few com packs and other panels around the venue that need to still operate.
For a standalone system, it would be nice... Love the bluetooth built in. I use a JK Blueset plugged into headset port and BT to a bone conduction headset with boom mic. I hate wires... can you tell?

 

[NJJerrySmith]

In my recent experience the FreeSpeak II beltpacks are of horrible build quality. In the last year, I've had about 5 break across a few venues I work in/manage. Either the plastic clamshells have split and fallen off (the standoff that attaches the case to the PCB shears) or the USB micro port comes unsoldered from the PCB.

Couple that with the fact that we've had one of our units at ClearCom for 5 months and are just receiving notice about its return (through a vendor, not us directly, so grain of salt). Couldn't get updates through the project from either ClearCom or our vendor. Just a painful time for com in my parts.

 

[themuzicman]

I think the big turn off for me is that is it can't interface with 2 wire, at least not that I have seen. We still have quite a few com packs and other panels around the venue that need to still operate.

You'd need a Riedel NSA-002A to break out 4-Wire from the AES67 stream and then something like a Clearcom IF4W4, Studio Technologies Model 47A, or a Riedel IF-2104 (Not sure if those are still made) to turn the 4-Wire into 2-Wire.

 

[Jay T]

We have in the past three years acquired 2 Freespeak II systems. The first one, three years ago, had problems with cases splitting, however they have all been repaired under warranty and Clearcom says they have changed suppliers for cases. The second system we received a month ago and have no problems as of now.

The antennas have a standalone site survey mode that can be used to position antennas for greatest coverage, although each antenna can only have 5 beltpacks on it. So with 4 antennas I cover front lobby all the way to conference room 500 ft away through multiple walls and roofs, with 2 antenna near front of house and 2 antenna in back lobby, I can have 10 beltpacks in BOH, 10 in front lobby, or 20 on stage.

 

[gafftaper]

My Freespeak system is around 5 years old. I use it in a high school and beltpacks have been dropped a few times. The beltpacks are all still in perfect condition. Still using the original factory rechargeable batteries. Our system is smaller than you are talking about (5 beltpacks and one receiver) and I'm very happy with it.

 

[markviml]

Just put in a system to our venue this fall. Arcadia, with 1.9G beltpacks and a IP transceiver. I like the IP, can do 10 beltpacks and run on same cabling as control. I did use Dante to bring in program audio, but couldn't find a way to route it to the labled program input, just added it to the channels where I wanted it. Coverage is great on 1 transceiver, 80'+ and through some heavy walls.

Build seems solid, but haven't had a lot of heavy use yet.

I was also thrown by the web-only interface, but we are a venue so I could setup one computer to always to available to it.

Huge audio improvement from our BTR system, only bump was getting headset mic volumes tuned in to reduce some initial echo.

 

[Jay Ashworth]

In my recent experience the FreeSpeak II beltpacks are of horrible build quality. In the last year, I've had about 5 break across a few venues I work in/manage. Either the plastic clamshells have split and fallen off (the standoff that attaches the case to the PCB shears) or the USB micro port comes unsoldered from the PCB.

Couple that with the fact that we've had one of our units at ClearCom for 5 months and are just receiving notice about its return (through a vendor, not us directly, so grain of salt). Couldn't get updates through the project from either ClearCom or our vendor. Just a painful time for com in my parts.

We've had to replace a few batteries, and we've had 2 A buttons get mushy and eventually stop working, but that's in a college over 5 years. Oh, and one belt clip came loose.

Not a horrible repair experience for us.

 

[EdSavoie]

We have a renter that comes in twice a year with a Freespeak II system they've had since not too long after they launched. They currently have one pack of their ten that needs to be sent off for a dead mic input. Other than that, they sound and work great.

We on the other hand did not have 25k to light on fire, so we cheaped out and went with an Eartec "The HUB" system with the UltraLITE headsests just over the summer to supplement our hardline Clearcom. Range seems to be about the same as the renter's Freespeak in our venue, A touring renter came in with the beltpack version of the Eartec system and they quite liked it.

Noise rejection is pretty good, battery life seems to be at least 8-10 hours per cell*. Audio quality is it's weakest aspect, it sounds like a cordless DECT phone, which is apt because that's exactly the protocol it uses. It's honestly fine for shows, our A2s / Fly ops / Deck hands have been liking them backstage.

Granted, I also went out and bought my own AVLifesavers headset interface to use in the lighting booth, so I'm a tad picky.

EDIT: Their manual actually quotes 6 hours, though I've absolutely done more than that on a charge, so YMMV.

 

[EdSavoie]

Further digging on their website for fun at this point. They seem to also have a higher end system that allows for 16+16 Wireless users. For reasons unbeknownst to human kind, they've chosen to use AN HDMI CABLE?? to interlink the two base stations. Can't comment on what this one's like though.

I mean, it's kinda clever. But still heretical.

 

[firewater88]

For our current show, we wound up renting a 10pk FSII system with 4 antennas locally. I know the guy and he has had it quite a while. It goes out on a lot of corporate gigs and they all have held up really well he said. Love the options we can now have with all of it. I submitted my request and it is going for approval by the board this month. Hopefully, it will get approved, otherwise, I will keep renting this setup when I need it. My JK Audio Blueset4 and my Shoxz Bones headset work as well, total wireless freedom!

 

[Jay Ashworth]

For our current show, we wound up renting a 10pk FSII system with 4 antennas locally. I know the guy and he has had it quite a while. It goes out on a lot of corporate gigs and they all have held up really well he said. Love the options we can now have with all of it. I submitted my request and it is going for approval by the board this month. Hopefully, it will get approved, otherwise, I will keep renting this setup when I need it. My JK Audio Blueset4 and my Shoxz Bones headset work as well, total wireless freedom!

I have an AfterShokz OC, with the boom, and I've been hunting for the Blueset for a while; did they discontinue that model? Or did I just think retail was too expensive? [ Looks; no, it's manufacturer discontinued. ]

 

[jtweigandt]

If you don't mind abandoning your current wired segment, I just reworked the Raspberry pi all in one wired/wireless mumble server.
Full duplex comms to wired or wifi station. Can have long range roaming using Dect headsets. Short range roaming with bluetooth headsets. or tethered to base usb headset.
And can cut in cell phones on the wifi segment using the mumble app. I have re worked images for base, wired station and wireless(wifi) station.

Pi 3 and 3b+ boards have fallen back down to the 35-50 buck range.. Pi zero for less or can run clients on old pc, cast off thin clients etc. Very economical and have been running our theater on Mumble for over 5 years now 5 productions a year. We get about 1/2 second latency in the real world.

 

[firewater88]

I have an AfterShokz OC, with the boom, and I've been hunting for the Blueset for a while; did they discontinue that model? Or did I just think retail was too expensive? [ Looks; no, it's manufacturer discontinued. ]

I just looked it up and they did discontinue it. Must have been recent, I ordered a 3rd one not that long ago. Pro6a needle in haystack now, but someone might have stock leftover. I order from B&H and they are out. Haven't seen a replacement either. Wish com companies would just add Bluetooth as an option. It really come ain handy....

 

[Jay Ashworth]

I just looked it up and they did discontinue it. Must have been recent, I ordered a 3rd one not that long ago. Pro6a needle in haystack now, but someone might have stock leftover. I order from B&H and they are out. Haven't seen a replacement either. Wish com companies would just add Bluetooth as an option. It really come ain handy....

I gather some of the upscale stuff from Clearcom and RTS and Riedel has built in BT.

 

[Jay Ashworth]

If you don't mind abandoning your current wired segment, I just reworked the Raspberry pi all in one wired/wireless mumble server.
[ ... ]
We get about 1/2 second latency in the real world.

Have you ever looked into what it would take to interface with 2W? Cause that's the gold standard, at least for this crowd...

And that half-second is marginal for cueing... :-}