Wireless 24 wireless handhelds for

[DavidIngraham]

Hello Control Booth!
This is my first post, but I have been following the forums for a while now. Just for some background, I run all of the sound for my school's choir program. I have never had any formal training, but I have picked up a lot and done quite a bit of research over the past 3 years. We do one huge variety show every year, and alternate between a musical and a musical review every spring. We also do two choral concerts every year.

At all of these events, everyday in class, and at many more random events, assemblies, etc. throughout the year, It is a huge pain for our 24 person jazz choir to set up and take down 24 wired handheld microphones and cables.

The best system that we have figured out so far is to run all 24 of these microphones into a 24 channel yamaha board on stage, and then feed that into our foh mixer.this works rather well, but because we don't have a 24 channel snake, we have to keep the board on the stage. We ordered a 24 channel snake, but it never arrived. However, even with a 24 channel snake it still takes way too long for everyone to plug in their microphones in order and get back to their positions. Because we practice on-mic pretty much every day, it takes a lot of classtime to get setup and clean up.

The director and I are trying to decide If it would be worth it to invest in a set of wireless mics. We realize that this would be a very large investment, and are taking this very seriously. The fine arts department get's around $17,000 a year that is only to be spent on equipment. We can probably get around $5000 of that a year for the choir program.

Currently, we have 5 Shure SLX handhelds in the G4 band (470–494 MHz). Under ideal conditions, Shure says that you can run 12 systems in each band. I was thinking that we could buy 3 more in this band, then eight in both the G5 (494–518 MHz) and G5 (494–518 MHz) bands. Would this work? Or does anyone have any ideas for a better way to deal with the wired mics?

I forgot to mention that we have 22 jacks on our stage and a 24 channel board at FOH.
Thanks!

 

[DuckJordan]

Is there a specific reason why every single person needs a mic? Unless there are solo after solo where there is absolutely no time to hand off. I could see Boundary Condenser mics working much better in this situation. You'll still get the volume you want and since you already have 4 wireless handhelds teaching good hand off technique would be a good idea.

 

[DavidIngraham]

Sorry for not making this more clear.
The choir director insists that we do it this way. At all of the competitions we go to, it is expected that we will sing with a mic for every person.

 

[rwhealey]

You've got the wired mics - $5000 will not buy you 19 wireless mics. It will buy you a 24ch snake and you'll have $4500 left over.

I worked with a very similar chior set-up- the director had his students set up and take down the sound equipment in a very orderly fashion. Each person had a specific job and they practiced enough that the students got good at it. The equipment wasn't too much of a distraction a few weeks into the semester.

 

[DavidIngraham]

We were planning on buying them over several years.

 

[metti]

You are not going to be happy with 24 channels of SLX. I would never want to work with channel counts that large with a wireless system that lacks networking for coordinating frequencies. I would sell the handful of units you currently have and go with something different going forward. IIRC, you need to go up to UHF-R to get networking with Shure gear so I would look at Sennheiser 300 series. Also, make sure you get proper antenna distro or you are going to be in intermod-hell.

 

[chausman]

I would suggest you give people with solos wireless so they can step forward easier and then reduce the number of cords.

Is there a specific reason why every single person needs a mic? Unless there are solo after solo where there is absolutely no time to hand off. I could see Boundary Condenser mics working much better in this situation. You'll still get the volume you want and since you already have 4 wireless handhelds teaching good hand off technique would be a good idea.

And, I think it is because often, Jazz groups will be smaller and it will be much harder to fill the space. And often with jazz you want to be able to here EVERY voice. And, it could be done with boundary mics, some people prefer to do it with individual mics. And, while learning good hand off technique, IMO it is more important to know and have experience using mics on everyone. And, a lot of people in my area need to learn how to hold a SM58 correctly. (And coil cable, but thats a whole other discussion.

 

[jkowtko]

The wireless are going to be at least as much of a bother as the wired -- probably more. Between batteries for the handhelds, having the extra equipment rack for the receivers, dealing with FX issues and possible antenna distro, I think you're in for a potentially big headache. The only advantage is the "coolness" of wireless and freedom of movement.

Why don't you put each singer in charge of wrapping up their own XLR cord and storing it with their mic? Give them some ownership of their own equipment, and your equipment packing problem will go away. All you need to do is pull the XLR out of the board ... can't be much simpler than that?

 

[avkid]

With 24 traveling wireless mics RF coordination becomes almost a full time job.

You also better know what you're doing with 24 open mics on stage.
No control at FOH is a disaster waiting to happen.

 

[DavidIngraham]

Thanks for the advice everybody. I can see now that It would be a whole lot more trouble (and/or money) than it would be worth. After much consideration, I now think that our biggest problem is that we have all 50 ft cables, so everyone just gets too lazy to properly recoil their cables. It seems like it makes a whole lot more sense to save the money, buy 25 foot cables, and get the snake.

 

[SHARYNF]

Thanks for the advice everybody. I can see now that It would be a whole lot more trouble (and/or money) than it would be worth. After much consideration, I now think that our biggest problem is that we have all 50 ft cables, so everyone just gets too lazy to properly recoil their cables. It seems like it makes a whole lot more sense to save the money, buy 25 foot cables, and get the snake.

Get shorter cables and LABEL each CABLE (BOTH ENDS) and MIC so that you have 1-24.
I have also used several colors of mic cables so that gives you another level of identification (say 4-6 colors so that they match the rows on the box,) I have used this setup, you need a stage box, coil each cable and mic and leave on the floor in a fanned out pattern this is a typical setup for vocal jazz competition

Sharyn

 

[Chris15]

I would not want to be trying 24 channels in anything less than UHF-R, though it would be nicer with Axient...

I agree with what's been said already for the most part. You might want to consider breaking it down to more than one stage box being able to drop your individual cable lengths even further...

 

[museav]

I like Chris's suggestion, maybe two 12 channel snakes or three 8 channel snakes that could terminate at different locations would make the connectivity easier and keep you from having to deal with a single rather large diameter. Combine that with Sharyn's ideas and things should be much easier. If you don't already have them you may also want to consider some cable ties and cases for the cables, the neater and more organized things are to start the faster setup will tend to be.

 

[mbenonis]

I agree with the suggestions above. Consider a 24 channel snake, plus three 8ch subsnakes that are maybe 8 or 10 feet long. THis will give you flexability to keep the cables neat and tidy, and you won't have the headaches associated with 24 channels of wireless (never mind 24 channels of SLX wireless...I could barely get two channels to work reliably, though this was a number of years ago).

Also, take $100 or $200 and invest in a cable label maker. Label EACH and EVERY cable with a number, and label your handheld mics too. It'll look professional, and your choir members will thank you.

Then all you have to do is train them. Heh. Heh.

Back in high school, we did something very similar with our Jazz choir, though it was only twelve people. They had twelve 15' mic cables and hand mics, and they never have much in the way of cable management issues. As far as I know, the system still works great!

You are not going to be happy with 24 channels of SLX. I would never want to work with channel counts that large with a wireless system that lacks networking for coordinating frequencies. I would sell the handful of units you currently have and go with something different going forward. IIRC, you need to go up to UHF-R to get networking with Shure gear so I would look at Sennheiser 300 series. Also, make sure you get proper antenna distro or you are going to be in intermod-hell.

Just a point of clarification here (maybe I should add this to my FAQ/guide too). Coordinating frequencies for something like this is absolutely necessary. I agree too that SLX would not be fun to work with at this level. What I disagree with is the last line, that a proper antenna distro will prevent intermod.

Antenna distro units are composed of two things, typically. First, the antenna distro unit amplifies the signal with a (typically wideband) RF amplifier by about 7 dB. Second, the unit splits it with a (close to) ideal splitter. The net result is that the signal at the output ports is pretty close in power to the signal coming into the input port.

Now, here comes the problem. When you run the signal through an amplifier, the amplifier will generate intermod products. Period. The good news is that if the amplifier is well designed these products will be very weak and hence will not cause much in the way of issues. If your frequencies are coordinated, none of the third-order (most powerful) products (IM3) will fall on any of your operating frequencies anyway. But, if any one signal is hot (a relative term), then any IM3 product involving that guy will also be increased in amplitude. The amplifier also adds noise to the signal, but if you did things right that's not an issue.

So, the bottom line is that antenna distro systems do nothing to *prevent* intermod. This is not to say they're useless by any stretch, though. What they do for you is let you share a (good) pair of antennas while keeping the signal at roughly unity gain, and help to reduce local oscillator leakage from one receiver to another*. They also often provide power distribution, which is valuable when you have >12 systems in a rack.

EDIT: One thing I forgot before. When you have a high density of transmitters on stage, and they're running high power (>10 mW or so), the transmitters themselves can create intermod! Remember that a transmitter is also a receiver, so while the signal from your power amplifier is going out of the antenna (most of it, at least...but some will go back in too because the antenna is imperfect!), signals from all around it are also going *in* to the PA. If the transmitter does not have a way to separate those signals and get rid of them, then they will leak into the PA and mix with the generated signal, creating intermod products. These products are potentially amplified, and transmitted over the air. No amount of receiver filtering will help you at this point.

The solution to this issue is to run the lowest power necessary for a solid link. Another tip is when your mics are lined up waiting for performers, put them all on a metal table and put a coffee can over each mic. This will reduce crosstalk and hence, intermod.


*In a receiver, there are signal generators (local oscillators) that are used to bring the signal down to a frequency that can be demodulated. These signals can leak out of the receiver port and, if an antenna is directly connected, they can actually be transmitted. If a bunch of antennas are located in close proximity, then it's quite possible that another receiver will see that signal and it'll get added to the mix and potentially cause direct interference or more intermodulation products.

 

[soundlight]

If I were spec'ing a snake for this situation, I would go with W6 connectors. Get a custom system with W6 passtru boxes, say 8 channels each (3 boxes). This will allow you to hook the boxes up in any order (for instance, if you need to send the snake off of to stage left instead of stage right to get to front of house, the boxes can still be laid out in the same order). This way you can keep your mic cables nice and short. So you'd need 3 stageboxes, 8 channels each, with W6 passthru. Box 1 would be 1-8, box 2 would be 9-16, and box 3 would be 17-24. You'd also need 2 short W6 cables and 1 long W6 cable that would go to FOH. This would have a matching W6 connector at your console (mounted in the doghouse or just a fanout if you will be using other consoles at other venues), and you would fan-out to the channels of the console. So 3 stage boxes, 2 short cables (depending on the size of the choir on stage), 1 long cable to get to FOH, and 1 fanout at FOH.

And if you do go custom, you may as well get 4 returns built in to your fanout since the cost will be negligible at that point and the W6 supports 28 channels (24x4 in this situation)

Here's the Whirlwind "how to spec your custom system" page: How to specify your system - Custom Shop - Whirlwind

And as has been mentioned, label everything. If your stageboxes are color coded, make the cables color-coded too so that it's easy to put the right cable in the right stagebox (use different colored tape when putting number labels on the cables and mics).

 

[avkid]

I would not want to be trying 24 channels in anything less than UHF-R

I have a 40 channel ULX installation that's been working great for 3 years now. (unless someone broke it after I left)

 

[mbenonis]

I have a 40 channel ULX installation that's been working great for 3 years now. (unless someone broke it after I left)

How close to the city? My guess: decently far (like >40 mi).

 

[avkid]

How close to the city? My guess: decently far (like >40 mi).

125 miles away in the backwoods on the Upper Delaware river.

 

[firewater88]

I feel your pain. At my fine arts center, I have 3 high schools and 2 middle schools that funnel through and I get the vocal jazz choir here a lot. We have anywhere from 16 to 24 kids that the director requires each have a mic. My dream is 24 ch wireless, I am about 1/4 of the way there. Currently I have some Whirlwind snake boxs that I run from the off stage patch panel to center stage. From there I run 15' mic cables to each mic. I have gotten all the directors to do two rows, instead of a semi circle (shorter cables needed). I also plug the piano and two solo mics out front into the box. The whole setup (done by me alone) usually takes a little over an hour from dragging everything out to doing a line check. I have done the setup so many times, it's pretty easy.
I agree with the previous poster about getting Whirlwind box's. Mine have an iso out with a fan out if I needed to run to a stage mix. They come in very handy for a lot of things. I wish I had returns in mine, but that was how they were ordered before I got there. I have a 12ch and 2 8ch boxes, each with a 50'wip.
Until you can REALLY afford the good wireless, just make your life easier doing it with wired mics.

 

[epimetheus]

I'll keep this detour short and sweet as it is sort of off-topic.

What is it with vocal groups that they think each member in the ensemble needs a mic? Can they not sing together as a group and harmonize? Each personal requires separate levels and EQ? A good vocal ensemble doesn't need a mic per person.

[/rant]