Conventional Fixtures Altman 360Q HPL?

[spacecraft]

I am my high school's lighting designer/technician. We have 40-50 Altman 360Qs (575 watt) and 14 source fours (575 watt). Because of this we have both bulb types...575 FLK and 575 HPL. It is rare for me to change a bulb on a source four, but our 360Qs burn bulbs like nobody's business. I was wondering if their were any alternatives to the FLK preferably with a high lumen output while still having a lamp lamp life of around 1500-2000 hours or even a conversion kit so the 360Qs could accept HPL?

Thank You

 

[DRU]

An EHG 750w lamp would be your best bet. It has around 2000 hours of life. This is what I use in my 360Qs.

 

[derekleffew]

Welcome to the booth, spacecraft.

... It is rare for me to change a bulb on a source four, but our 360Qs burn bulbs like nobody's business. ...

You're probably using long-life HPL s in your S4's and your 360Qs' FLK is a short-life, high-output lamp that suffers from a fragile filament.

The lamp you are seeking is the GLA, 575W long-life. It has very similar characteristics to the HPL575X/LL. To my knowledge, there is no conversion kit to allow the 360Q to accept HPL lamps, and likely never will be. However, it might be noted that the new Altman Phoenix ERS can be ordered to accept the GLx OR the HPL series.

In order to make the 360Q perform similarly to a 575W Source Four, it's likely you will need to go to a 750W lamp, in which case the GLE is the preferred long-life version.

EHD, EHG, and FEL are old-skool filament geometry with the source not as compact as the GLx/HPL series. You might also want to consider the Super Reflector upgrade for your 360Q fixtures. See also the threads http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/18472-360q-upgrades.html and http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/27887-ehg-replacment-ehd-gla-glh.html .

 

[PeteEngel]

The FLK filament has a tendency to sag in short order. If the lamp isn't oriented with the post "above" the filament, it will come in contact with the filament and fail.

 

[JLNorthGA]

What Derek said.

I was running other bulbs in OLD Altman 360Q and similar instruments. I switched to GLA bulbs and I had a much increased bulb life. Of course the other thing that helped was putting up some work lights for the apron - so they wouldn't use the ellipsoidals for rehearsals .

 

[JD]

The HPL and the Source Four were designed for each other. In fact, the S4 gets it's name from the "Four" stacked filament sections being the light "Source." By moving the filament into that structure, more light is given out in a smaller location, which is very desirable in a focused spot.

Older axial spots that are designed for the longer length filament can not take advantage of the tighter light source in the HPL as the reflectors were configured to be optimum with the longer length filaments found in the FEL/FLK etc.

Upgrading the lamp type in an older axial unit requires several perimeters to fall in alignment:
1) Obviously, the lamp base
2) The distance between the lamp base and the center of the filament. (LCL)
3) The length of the filament.

If the base and the LCL are a match, using a lamp with a tighter filament in a fixture designed for a longer filament will not do any harm, but you will not get the same efficiency that you would in a fixture designed for the shorter filament. Conversely, using a lamp with a longer filament in a fixture designed for a shorter filament will not only be inefficient, it may actually cause harm to the fixture. This is because light and heat generated by the lamp that is not directed properly out of the reflector area will tend to build temperature in that area beyond what the fixture was designed to deal with.

 

[LXPlot]

The HPL and the Source Four were designed for each other. In fact, the S4 gets it's name from the "Four" stacked filament sections being the light "Source." By moving the filament into that structure, more light is given out in a smaller location, which is very desirable in a focused spot.

I thought it was from the fact that you could put four on a dimmer? Although, I've heard both so maybe the four on a dimmer is just an old marketing thing.

 

[danTt]

Must be a marketing thing. You could put four FLK's on the same dimmer as well.. in fact, I suppose you could put four 10k fresnels on a dimmer... it would just have to be a really big dimmer

 

[Les]

I thought it was from the fact that you could put four on a dimmer? Although, I've heard both so maybe the four on a dimmer is just an old marketing thing.

Yeah, someone was probably misinformed. After all, not everyone has 2.4k dimmers. Other wise, it would be the "Source Four IfYouUse2.4kDimmers", or the S4IYU2.4D for short . With the new 750's out, they'd have to be Source Three's.

"Why is my 1.8k dimmer tripping? You said I could put four on there!"

The Source Four is, in fact, named for the lamp used. The 4-filament lamp was actually designed first -- the fixture second.

*Of course, the Source Four LED just had to break the rule!

 

[derekleffew]

I thought it was from the fact that you could put four on a dimmer? ...

Bull pucky. Let's end this right now. The fixture was named after the lamp. (And in fact, there is still disagreement over whether it's wise to put four 575W on a 2.4kW dimmer: http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/question-day/9282-acceptable-put-4x-s4s-dimmer.html .)

-----

...as the reflectors were configured to be optimum with the longer length filaments found in the FEL/FLK etc. ...

FLK is a "short filament" when compared to the FEL/EHG/EHD.

 

[LXPlot]

Yeah, someone was probably misinformed. After all, not everyone has 2.4k dimmers. Other wise, it would be the "Source Four IfYouUse2.4kDimmers", or the S4IYU2.4D for short . With the new 750's out, they'd have to be Source Three's.

"Why is my 1.8k dimmer tripping? You said I could put four on there!"

The Source Four is, in fact, named for the lamp used. The 4-filament lamp was actually designed first -- the fixture second.

*Of course, the Source Four LED just had to break the rule!

Yeah, I always thought the source I got that from was wrong, as ETC seemed to be the type of company that wouldn't later release versions that would fit three or six of the four kind, and wouldn't overlook the fact that other dimmer types might be used. However, said people happened to be very knowledgeable about all of this so I trusted them. I guess they were wrong about this.

I figured the fixture would have been designed after the lamp, but it didn't seem like something to be named off of. They could have just as easily been called Source Twos for having 2 gel slots

 

[JD]

FLK is a "short filament" when compared to the FEL/EHG/EHD.

Yes, my mistake. The FEL/EHG/EHD were the longer filament that dominated the older style axial spot market.

 

[ship]

Assuming condition of lamp sockets with two various eras of lighting.

Why failing sooner? Perhaps bad lamp sockets? Study of what caused the lamps to go bad no matter what the type? "360Qs burn bulbs like nobody's business" Consider older fixture and if bad socket with perfectly good lamp put into it - no matter the lamp, it won't conduct properly and trash that perfectly good lamp?

Ship' really going away very soon once in days to weeks until my Girl is born! If any use to the website over the years, it's not been mostly about lamps in prefrence to the GLA, or other stuff, it's been about the cause of why lamps blow sooner. Derek I think took it for granted a long life HPL lamp as opposed to dimming differences and or more important that the lamp sockets on the 360Q fixtures were possibly trash in also trashing the perfectly good lamps what ever they were put into them.

A few years from now if replaced 360Q sockets, one might be asking the same question about the S-4 sockets in trashing lamps sooner I suspect until confirmed that both were very good in comparison. Than I would get into other 360Q concepts of bench focus, cleaning etc. This no matter the lamp. First start with why it failed in figuring out the solution.

A lot of good tech on this website these days - a lot of it I don't feel qualified to reply to or is already covered. Base stuff though I was perhaps most of help on let's get back to. Before assuming, let's see the lamp and assuming it was not lot number or lamp. What is causing this problem? Perhaps not the lamp implied for use?

 

[DELO72]

Derek is correct. The lamp you want is the GLA. This is the long life version of the GLC. (Similar to an HPL/X, and an HPL). The reason the FLK is not the best choice is do to the filament design. It may be better optically inside the reflector of the 360Q (You would want to ask Altman to be certain). The long CC8 coil design used in the FLK, FEL, EHD, etc., has two very weak points, and so they tend to snap easy when bumped during focus or vibration. The C13D design of the GLC/GLA/GLD/GLE/GLG/GLH family is more robust, similiar in design to the multi-filament design of the HPL. The filament resembles the springs on a trampoline or bedspring and therefore is MUCH more robust.

 

[BobHealey]

Resurrecting an old thread, but browsing one of my supplier's catalogs, I saw 360Qs being offered with HPLs. Does anyone have any more information about this, or is it possibly a typo, or something that accidentally got released too soon?

 

[TDN]

There were also the advertisements in Lighting & Sound America about the Altman 65Q being offered with HPL lamps- something the Altman website hasn't mentioned.

Thread on the subject here http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/...921-something-new-altman-6-fresnel-print.html

 

[Les]

I believe the 360Q and Phoenix (and possibly others) are now available with an HPL option. ETC's license expired [or something like that], so the lamp is now fair use.