Best "easy to use" light board - will we need "training" or is the manual enough?

[JLNorthGA]

We have a small community playhouse.
The auditorium seats 250. The proscenium opening is 30' W x 16' H. The stage depth in back of the proscenium is ~20' and the apron in front of the proscenium is ~12'.

We have 66 circuits (24 on the catwalk and 42 on two light bars above the stage). We do have fly space above the stage.

Anyway, we are purchasing a new lighting system to control the circuits. We have decided on a Sensor dimming rack from ETC.

We pretty much have decided on the ETC Element 40/250. We figure this will give us a fairly good bang for the buck.

One vendor has a "training and installation package" included in the quote and the other doesn't. If we don't get the training and installation package, I can afford new backdrops and side cycs.

Do we need the training package or is the Element easy enough to operate using the manual and online help tools?

 

[mstaylor]

I would check with ETC and see if they normally do an onsite training. I believe they do when you are buying a board and dimmers. If that is so then you don't need the training. I would go to Youtube and watch the training videos there and be familiar with it before he gets there. Plus their support is unparalleled and there is enough guys here to help, including some of the ETC guys.

 

[derekleffew]

...One vendor has a "training and installation package" included in the quote and the other doesn't. ...

To be certain that you're comparing apples to apples, ask both vendors to rebid, based on the same specifications. Either have BOTH vendors include the "training and installation package", OR neither does. Another thing to consider: how close to you are the vendors? Do they also have a rental operation? Could they provide replacement/loaner gear to you at a moment's notice? See also Dealers for Supplies and Equipment - ControlBooth .

If it's an installed (non-portable) dimmer rack (perhaps a Sensor3 SR48 rack with 33x D20 and 15x AFM modules, just guessing), an ETC-authorized field service technician must be present for the initial turn on, to verify proper installation. Part of this service usually involves at least some minimal training.

Only YOU can decide whether it's necessary to pay for console training. Are you, or anyone in your organization, familiar with other memory lighting control systems? Are there other users (colleges, high schools, other theatres) of similar equipment in your area? Do you use only conventional fixtures, or are you also planning LED and/or automated fixtures? Besides ETC's toll-free 24/7 phone support (1.800.688.4116), you also have the ETC Forums, and many folks, both ETC employees and us commoners, here at ControlBooth who can assist you as needed.

 

[jglodeklights]

I'm with Michael on this, check with ETC. You aren't spending the most money ever on a system, but since you are likely buying an SR24 or SR48 you aren't spending chump change on things either.

As to the Element itself, do you have any prior experience on the ETC Express or Expression family? If so, many concepts will be familiar. Others will be completely foreign, but ultimately lead to much easier execution of programming once you learn them.

As to the actual training and installation package, I would check to see what is actually included in it. There may be items that you actually DO need, depending on the current set up of your theater and how you got this quote. If they came in and checked your current system, they may have added lines within that quote (which they sometimes hide when they give it to you) that detail other equipment such as splitters or house control boxes. If this installation package is also for the dimmers, then YES, you need it unless you are going with a Sensor Touring PACK in which case you may still want them to properly install it in your space. I can't tell you how many times I've found packs of various sorts improperly installed in some of the smaller spaces in my area....

 

[JLNorthGA]

To be certain that you're comparing apples to apples, ask both vendors to rebid, based on the same specifications. Either have BOTH vendors include the "training and installation package", OR neither does. Another thing to consider: how close to you are the vendors? Do they also have a rental operation? Could they provide replacement/loaner gear to you at a moment's notice? See also Dealers for Supplies and Equipment - ControlBooth .

If it's an installed (non-portable) dimmer rack (perhaps a Sensor3 SR48 rack with 33x D20 and 15x AFM modules, just guessing), an ETC-authorized field service technician must be present for the initial turn on, to verify proper installation. Part of this service usually involves at least some minimal training.

Only YOU can decide whether it's necessary to pay for console training. Are you, or anyone in your organization, familiar with other memory lighting control systems? Are there other users (colleges, high schools, other theatres) of similar equipment in your area? Do you use only conventional fixtures, or are you also planning LED and/or automated fixtures? Besides ETC's toll-free 24/7 phone support (1.800.688.4116), you also have the ETC Forums, and many folks, both ETC employees and us commoners, here at ControlBooth who can assist you as needed.

Both quotes have a Sensor Rack 48 with 33 D20 modules. We are only using conventional fixtures (Source Fours 19, 26 and 36 degrees and Altman Fresnels). My lighting experience is with the older style boards (manual, pre 1985 boards). But I have used complicated equipment before (GC/MS, NMR, ESR, FTIR, etc.). Our area is quite remote - but we are a couple of hours north of Atlanta, GA.

I will get a rebid from the first vendor as well as the second one - to make sure what is included. I know I have installation of the Sensor + rack included in both.

 

[derekleffew]

...But I have used complicated equipment before (GC/MS, NMR, ESR, FTIR, etc.). ...

Must be complicated, as I've never heard of any of those acronyms.

...I know I have installation of the Sensor+ rack included in both.

I would have assumed, with the introduction of the Sensor3 in April 2011, that the CEM+ would be discontinued, and no longer be available for new installations. But Sensor+ is still on the website as a current product. What's up with that, ETC?

Unsolicited advice: JLNorthGA, I'd include at least a couple of TR20 modules, as the time will come, probably sooner rather than later, where you're going to need/want to power something other than incandescent lamps with your dimmer rack.

 

[SteveB]

I would have assumed, with the introduction of the Sensor3 in April 2011, that the CEM+ would be discontinued, and no longer be available for new installations. But Sensor+ is still on the website as a current product. What's up with that, ETC?

Often times there's a long lag between when the dealer got a quote from ETC and when the stuff ships. ETC, as we can see, changes their product line. Usually they will automatically send the latest and greatest - I.E. CEM+ instead of the older basic (as in my case back in '04), or possibly will send the newer Sensor 3 CEM instead of CEM+ in this case and usually at no cost.

Note as well that there is (or was) a mandatory training fee (imposed by ETC) of $2000 that the dealer has to add to every bid for an Ion or Eos console, and I would assume for the Gios as well. I would not assume this fee applies to the Element as that's a huge percentage of the actual console price. It's possible in this case that the vendor that added the training fee mistakenly thought they were were required to do so by ETC. I would e-mail to clarify and ask for a re-quote if it's in error.

But possibly the dealer is adding the cost of installing the Sensor racks ?. In that case an additional cost is appropriate.

 

[starksk]

I thought I pressed post on this yesterday, but I guess I closed the window too soon…

There are a few things that should be clarified:

Note as well that there is (or was) a mandatory training fee (imposed by ETC) of $2000 that the dealer has to add to every bid for an Ion or Eos console, and I would assume for the Gios as well. I would not assume this fee applies to the Element as that's a huge percentage of the actual console price. It's possible in this case that the vendor that added the training fee mistakenly thought they were were required to do so by ETC. I would e-mail to clarify and ask for a re-quote if it's in error.

But possibly the dealer is adding the cost of installing the Sensor racks ?. In that case an additional cost is appropriate.

This is not entirely accurate. The processes for generating quotes are not my department so I will try to clarify as best I can. Generally speaking, consoles can be purchased one of two ways: either as a part of a system or standalone. In both cases, there is a minimum amount of training required. It isn't a simple dollar amount adder. Instead, it is based on the number of hours of training required for each console type.

Element is special because it can be purchased outside of a system without training. We still suggest that training should be provided, but it isn’t required.

So in the OP’s case, the two differing numbers are likely a result of the console being included as a part of the system and training included with system training on one bid, and the console being provided separately from the system and thus no console training on the other bid. Which is better is a decision that is yours to make based on your training needs. (Personally, taking off my ETC hat for a moment, I would say based on your stated use of consoles, 4 hours of one-on-one training might not hurt to get you comfortable and up to speed with the desk.)

Often times there's a long lag between when the dealer got a quote from ETC and when the stuff ships. ETC, as we can see, changes their product line. Usually they will automatically send the latest and greatest - I.E. CEM+ instead of the older basic (as in my case back in '04), or possibly will send the newer Sensor 3 CEM instead of CEM+ in this case and usually at no cost.

Sensor3 has been released to the portable/touring market but was waiting on specific UL testing and other factors for the install market. We anticipate the release to the install market very soon. Depending on when this system is going to ship, it may or may not be converted to CEM3.

 

[chausman]

Depending on when this system is going to ship, it may or may not be converted to CEM3.

Just out of curiosity, if that was the case, would there be any price difference between next generation (CEM3) and current generation (CEM+)?

 

[starksk]

Just out of curiosity, if that was the case, would there be any price difference between [-]previous[/-] next generation (CEM3) and current generation (CEM+)?

Unfortunately, I can't comment on this because both are P.O.A. and that pricing is not my department.

 

[kicknargel]

I would definitely try to get the vendors to be more specific with the line itemization of their bids, so you know exactly what you're paying for. Maybe the training is only small amount, but other line items cost more as well. I have trouble believing that 4 hours of training is worth the price of "new backdrops and side cycs." Sounds to me like the kind of fee you can get a organization to approve if they're not paying attention, maybe to make up for a low profit margin on the actual product. Like beer at the ballpark. I'd bet with a little research you could hire a well-qualified professional to give you a day of training for a few hundred bucks plus travel.

And just saying, I've learned many consoles just from the manual and experience. But I'm that kind of person.

 

[photoatdv]

Generally speaking, consoles can be purchased one of two ways: either as a part of a system or standalone. In both cases, there is a minimum amount of training required. It isn't a simple dollar amount adder. Instead, it is based on the number of hours of training required for each console type.

Why on earth would you guys have mandatory training to buy consoles? I would certainly imagine that someone that knows the console would be a little irked to be paying to be trained on something they already know. My company doesn't have the need or budget for that level of console right now, but it's certainly not unconcievable that we will in a couple of years, and having to pay for training on a console I already know would factor into a purchase decision.

 

[SteveB]

Just out of curiosity, if that was the case, would there be any price difference between next generation (CEM3) and current generation (CEM+)?

Chausman, I can only comment on my particular experience and the reason for my comment. Sometimes, on a long lead time project, with monies tied up in governmental agencies, it can be a few years between when a consultant or user specifies and requests a particular piece of equipment and the time it's delivered. In my case our spec's called for standard Sensor racks with the original CEM's. It was then a few years from the time of the spec and delivery. I was aware that ETC had moved to the CEM+ in that interim and almost re-wrote the spec's, but was told not to, as it was likely the manufacturer would ship CEM+ as they had already discontinued the older version. Thus we got CEM+, which saved us using a node to generate DMX from ETC Net2. This is somewhat at the discretion of the manufacturer and sometimes not even as they sometimes have to meet the letter of the spec. (thus they keep some legacy items around). If they can state that the replacement is better and is not a cost issue, then the agencies will approve. I recently purchased a Net3 4 port Gateway and between the time I spec'd the item and forwarded paperwork, ETC changed to a model that was not backwards compatible to Net2, which was what I needed. They also had set aside, or could manufacturer models that were Net 2 compatible, thus I simply swapped models at no charge. This kind of thing happens all the time, or so I'm led to understand.

 

[SteveB]

Why on earth would you guys have mandatory training to buy consoles? .

The term "Mandatory" is incorrect and "recommended" would be more accurate. The dealers can waive the training fee (and training). My understanding is since the console is POA, the factory quote includes the fee and it's recommended.

I paid the fee on my first Ion and had a rep from Barbizon spend 8 hrs with me. I was new to the desk but had decades on computer consoles. The training was worth it, IMO. On the 2nd desk being purchased for the Dept, of Theater, we may waive training as at this point I probably know the desk as well as a trainer, based on 2 intense years using the desk.

 

[JLNorthGA]

Our new Sensor 3 is up and running!


I had despaired of getting to this point. The electricians put in a full day yesterday getting the raceways tied into the Sensor 3 rack. Today we ran the Beldin 9729 cable from the light booth and the ETC tech guy started the commissioning process.

 

[Pie4Weebl]

Re: Our new Sensor 3 is up and running!

they come in black now!?

 

[chausman]

Re: Our new Sensor 3 is up and running!

they come in black now!?

http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/24212-etc-sensor3-cem3.html#post241784