Control/Dimming Best (inexpensive) controller for enhanced MIDI support

[BadRad]

I play in a 3 piece band and we are looking to automate our current lighting setup using MIDI. We currently have a simple 12/16 DMX controller (12 total fixtures) that doesn't have MIDI support, so I'm looking for one that does. The Obey 40 seems like it would fit the bill, though I'm not sure it has all the MIDI support I'd like.

I currently use MIDI to control a bank of keys/samplers on top of my guitar rig, though we don't run sequences, click tracks, etc. My current rig uses hardware and I'm not interested in any laptop/software solutions at this time. For MIDI control, I run a McMillen SoftStep (can send out any MIDI information I need it to), a POD HD (the footswitches 'can' be used to send out MIDI note ons and CC control), and I also have a freed-up Behringer 1010. I currently manage setlists and initial MIDI patch changes for all gear using an Ipod touch (w/MIDI interface) using an app called Setlist Maker. All MIDI outs are merged so I have a lot of potential control points.

Since we aren't sequenced, I'd expect that my setlist app can control the initial scene for each song, then tie a few scene changes to some of the sample triggering I already do from the SoftStep, and set up a few open footswitch points (or a dedicated Behringer 1010) for specific scene and chase triggers. All of this sounds doable with a controller like the Obey 40, which responds to MIDI NoteOns.

But I'd also like some simple, individual light fade control against the currently selected scene - mainly for spots - that can potentially be controlled using MIDI CC expression controllers from myself or other band members for their own individual lights. Trying to automate as much as possible from current MIDI data flow, and not tie myself up running the entire show. The ability to load up a scene and have a few basic individual pedal fade controls inside of each scene would keep things easy, otherwise we'd have to use noteons for each spot fade in and out - which gets complex with foot controllers.

Are there any reasonably priced controllers that offer more MIDI options than simple note-on/scene changes, or are there any additional MIDI specifications I'm missing with boards like the Obey?

Are there any other options I should look into for this type of control? Might also be interested in any that support basic audio triggers (looks like the Chauvet Stage Designer 50 has a single audio in, though 3-4 would be preferred) but I'm not sure if that's the answer either.

Thanks in Advance

 

[BadRad]

Just to follow up, I noticed some features on the AMERICAN Stage 24 DMX Channel Scene Setter that may provide some of the additional control I'm looking for. It appears this board has a MIDI addressable Channel Intensity using MIDI Velocity settings. This could work for my scenarios above if I can have this only affect a specific light when triggered. Does anyone know if this assumption is correct?

I'd appreciate hearing from anyone who has experience with one.

I saw some similar features on the Behringer LC2414, but after reading about all the awful stories, I'm assuming I shouldn't go that direction.

 

[SanTai]

I am not a real light tech, but some more info on what kind of fixtures you would like to control and what you want kind of effect you wish to achieve, would be helpful to give any advice.

If you only control dimmer or relays and do not want a computer to control the show or the money for a real console, take a look at the Midi to DMX DecaBox(DecaBox Midi to DMX Bridge » Engineering Solutions Inc). It is probably not a substitute for a lightning console but it got some nice show control applications. It more or less just doubles the midi note value and sends it as DMX. It can do something similar with CC values.

 

[BadRad]

The DecaBox looks interesting. Not sure if I was following everything in the link, but is your understanding that the DecaBox can be setup using software offline, then be used as a standalone scene changer when used in a live situation? If so, and if the software will allow me to define scenes and other MIDI controls, this would have some value.

Of course, the beauty of having a console is that we could use a real lighting engineer at times, or if the MIDI rig went down, we would still have a board under which we could set up a scene or two and pull off the show.

Interesting device, though. I'll do some more reading up on it.

 

[BadRad]

I am not a real light tech, but some more info on what kind of fixtures you would like to control and what you want kind of effect you wish to achieve, would be helpful to give any advice.

For now, our 12 fixtures are all LEDs. We were thinking about getting a couple of movers. Will something like a Scene Setter 24 be able to deal with the channel requirements of movers? Are there specific types of movers we should be looking at to be more compatible?

 

[BillESC]

I would take a hard look at the Elation/ADJ Magic 260. It will do all you ask and more for under $ 600.00

American DJ Homepage

 

[BadRad]

Appreciate the input, Bill. $600 may be a little higher than our budget, though I'd consider it if the MIDI implementation had a lot of individual control options, but I'm not sure it does.

This board looks great for controlling moving lights, but it looks like my only options via MIDI are to trigger individual scenes or shows. If I'm not mistaken, Shows appear to be more elaborate versions of chases on the cheaper boards, though I don't see any options for MIDI triggering through the steps - whereas the Scene Setter board does appear to have a step mode and a host of other MIDI addressable options.

Of course, all I can do at this point is go off of what I can discern by reading the manuals and MIDI implementation charts. All might be different once I got my hands on a particular board. But keep in mind that, in my setup, I'm trying to automate entirely through MIDI.

Let me know if there's more to the 260 that I'm not seeing.

I also need to know if the Scene Setter boards will work at all with motion lights. Again, we're talking about adding only a couple, though I've never worked with them before so I don't understand what parameters/limitations I should be looking at when choosing a particular board.

 

[AEGProduction]

Unfortunately the scene setter is a 24 channel only board. It may run 1 mover, but nothing more (basically the answer is no). Moving lights take up usually 10+ Channels on the board depending on which light/features there are.

The limitations of the scene setter are at 24 DMX channels maximum. It is known as a "dimming console." They are great for small shows where you may only have a few incandescent pars, or only a handful of LED's. When you need more control, you are stuck with the 24 channels, and have to make do with what you have.

 

[BadRad]

OK - so, a 24 channel board can only handle that many DMX channels max. Does that mean that a 7 channel LED PAR 'requires' that all 7 channels be used when it's connected, or can I only use the channels I need from that particular light? For example, if I don't use the strobe functionality, is that channel still allocated?

I'm a bit new to DMX, so I want to make sure I understand what my limitations are with any console.

Right now, we have 4 7-channel PAR 38s, 4 5-channel LED RGBA cans, and 2 7-channel LED Par 64s. Looking to add 2 inexpensive movers that can be used in either 12-channel or 5-channel modes (I would assume 5 would have to do for us). My assumption is that each scene can use whatever configuration of 24 DMX channels from this set of lights. Is this correct? Or am I truly limited to only about 4 lights per scene with a 24 channel board?

 

[BadRad]

Based on the info I've received and been reading about, I think I'm down to either a Chauvet Obey 40 (192 channels/$120) or the Elation Magic 260 (260 channels/$450-600). The Magic looks like a great board, though the Obey would probably work for my current lighting setup, with a couple of basic movers added in.

But it appears that I'm still limited in the MIDI implementation of each, as there appears to be no way to easily control individual lights (spots) without calling up a full scene. The idea is to give other band members a basic pedal/switch to control solo spots. This can be done by using a standard MIDI patch pedal (2-3 buttons) and filtering to specific note-ons using something like a MIDI Solutions Event Processor. But instead of turning on a spot inside of a particular scene, it looks like the MIDI implementation of these boards would only allow us to call up the same scene from each member's switch.

Does any other board offer a mechanism for the control of individual lights inside of a scene, which can be addressed via MIDI?

Maybe I do need to look further into the DecaBox, but I'm not sure it really supports a scene-based model.

 

[BadRad]

I'll probably start with the Obey 40 and use it to set up basic scenes. Then, also buy a DecaBox as it looks like it can record scenes from an external DMX source, and I can add additional MIDI CC and Note controls for individual fixture control.

I can run shows straight from the DecaBox, and still have the Obey for a backup.

Appreciate all the help!

 

[JimboKeys]

Hey Rad,

I'm in a similar situation and thought i'd chime in. I have a DecaBox but i'm also looking at console-type controllers with MIDI inputs. You're right that MIDI control of these controllers is rather lacking, as if it were added as an afterthought.

To clarify, the MIDI-to-DMX DecaBox has no scene memory or real smarts of any kind - it's strictly a MIDI-to-DMX converter. What that means is that if you have (for example) a MIDI controller with 8 sliders (or footswitches or whatever), all the DecaBox will do is translate those 8 sliders into DMX messages on the channels corresponding to the control numbers, so that you have faders on 8 DMX channels (enough for 2 typical fixtures). Though i believe they also make a DMX playback box, but that's a separate beast. Also, the MIDI-to-DMX DecaBox has the annoying behaviour of going into blackout when one of several MIDI messages are received, so i'm thinking i may need to get a MIDI solutions box to filter what gets sent to it.

To minimize the number of channels that you need to control, you will want to set your RGB fixtures to operate in 3-channel mode (4-channel for RGBA) -- most, but not all, fixtures allow you to select a particular DMX mode, such as 3-channel or 7-channel mode.

You might also want to look at the Elation Operator line of controllers -- cheaper than the Magic 260 and better quality than the Obeys for not much more money (but still pretty limited in MIDI functionality).

 

[BadRad]

Hey Rad,

I'm in a similar situation and thought i'd chime in. I have a DecaBox but i'm also looking at console-type controllers with MIDI inputs. You're right that MIDI control of these controllers is rather lacking, as if it were added as an afterthought.

Yup - realized that MIDI control on most of these boards is simply too limiting, and after more research found that the Decabox was too bare bones for what I needed.

I eventually went with DMXis - even though I really wanted to stay away from PCs on stage. Luckily DMXis has such low overhead, I was able to run it off of a Netbook I already carried around for emergency patch loading. If I would have had to buy a new laptop for this, I wouldn't have done it - but it runs perfectly off of the Netbook.

So - I have DMXis running the show, and I have my Obey-40 set up as a backup unit in case I ever have computer problems. Someone recommended DMXis to me earlier, and I originally passed it off, but it really has the MIDI control I need, and also has some nice audio and oscillator control functions. I was able to tie it's banks (songs) in with my iOS setlist app, and I trigger specific presets (scenes) from a MIDI foot controller as needed. I also have individual fixture/channel control from MIDI note/velocity and CC control. It's a system I have tons of options with.

I think if I were just going to go with a board, I'd look heavily into the Operator - and had almost cost justified the Magic (after really digging into the functionality offered) that BillESC originally recommended. But DMXis was the right mix of MIDI and console features for our needs.

 

[AhClem]

I've just used MIDI-OX/MIDI-Yoke to 'remap' an Akai APC40 controller to use as a MIDI input controller for our BlueLite X1's 'Live Panel' (disclosure... I'm the manufacturer) and I could use some user feedback on how you would want (or expect) a MIDI controller like the APC40 to behave when used as a lighting control.