Mixers/Consoles Buying New Sound Board

[tromboneking]

Hello...I'm new here to the forum and have some questions. I'm also a bit of newbie when it comes to sound boards and specs. I've usually come in with something setup, in my current situation, I'm setting up something new.

My church is looking to upgrade, specifically recording video using a camera and a sound board. I believe the Pastor has purchased a Canon XH A1 HD camera but I'm not sure how the sound will go to the camera. Should I use the Aux Sends to send that signal to the camera and then a send from the camera to a recording device?

Also, we are upgrading our sound board from a Mackie 20 channel to one with 32-48 channels, preferably with built in effects. With a digital board, would I be able to change Chan 1 from vocal 1 to vocal 3 by a press of a button midstream?

Also, what boards/brands would work best in this situation if we do go digital? If we get another analog board, I am looking at Soundcraft/Mackie/Yamaha boards. I'm looking at getting something that has at least 6 sets of Aux Sends.

Ideas?


Thanks!

 

[gpforet]

What does the church have now, and why do they think they need to upgrade?

Section 1
You can use an aux send to send the audio to the camera. Not sure why you would want to come out of the camera to another recording device since the camera is a recording device, or, if you're using strickly a camera, the send the audio directly to the recording device.

Section 2
Digital vs. analog console
Who all will be operating this system? What you are describing, routing an input signal to a particular fader is acheiveable, but what does that do for you? With proper configuration, a digital console can be set up so novices like yourself can do the things they need to do, while locking out stuff that could get you in trouble.

Section 3.
Brands
I'm thinking you'll first need to get a grasp on your requirements before looking at brands and models. It's probably time to call in a professional consultant to discuss needs, both current and future, and then identify products which meet those needs.

Hello...I'm new here to the forum and have some questions. I'm also a bit of newbie when it comes to sound boards and specs. I've usually come in with something setup, in my current situation, I'm setting up something new.

My church is looking to upgrade, specifically recording video using a camera and a sound board. I believe the Pastor has purchased a Canon XH A1 HD camera but I'm not sure how the sound will go to the camera. Should I use the Aux Sends to send that signal to the camera and then a send from the camera to a recording device?

Also, we are upgrading our sound board from a Mackie 20 channel to one with 32-48 channels, preferably with built in effects. With a digital board, would I be able to change Chan 1 from vocal 1 to vocal 3 by a press of a button midstream?

Also, what boards/brands would work best in this situation if we do go digital? If we get another analog board, I am looking at Soundcraft/Mackie/Yamaha boards. I'm looking at getting something that has at least 6 sets of Aux Sends.

Ideas?


Thanks!

 

[SHARYNF]

that canon Hd camera is very nice. It has xlr inputs that are mic and line selectable. If you do use the camera to record the audio make sure you turn off the phantom power on the xlr inputs

If you are only using the one camera, then IMO it is best to record the audio back into the camera and the XH AI Hd does a good job of that. You will want to make sure you get the levels set correctly, if you are in SD mode use 16 bit audio.

XH A1 High Definition Camcorder :: Audio

If the camera is manned you might want to look at 90 degree angled xlr's and a way to connect the cables to the camera but keep them out of the way and not to interfere with how the operator is using it on the tripod. I have seen situations where the audio person connects it all up but forgets that the camera still needs a lot of ability to move


Sharyn

 

[museav]

My church is looking to upgrade, specifically recording video using a camera and a sound board. I believe the Pastor has purchased a Canon XH A1 HD camera but I'm not sure how the sound will go to the camera. Should I use the Aux Sends to send that signal to the camera and then a send from the camera to a recording device?

The XH A1 is a miniDV camcorder so it is a recorder. If you are using it to record then you would usually run the audio from the console to the XLR inputs on the camera with the inputs set for line level (and with phantom off as already noted). If you are using an external recorder then you would usually run audio direct from the console to that recorder.

Also, we are upgrading our sound board from a Mackie 20 channel to one with 32-48 channels, preferably with built in effects. With a digital board, would I be able to change Chan 1 from vocal 1 to vocal 3 by a press of a button midstream?

That all depends on the console and what you mean by switching 'Chan 1 from vocal 1 to vocal 3'. You are dealing with physical I/O, internal busing/routing and control surface assignments that all may or may not be programmable depending on the console. You may have a console where physical input 1 is internal Channel 1 and is on Fader 1 and that cannot be changed. Or you may have a console where any physical input can be assigned to any internal channel which can be assigned to any control channel. Or anywhere in between those two extremes. You may be able to recall or change fader/control assignments with little or no delay while changing physical I/O to internal bus assignments may require some time. That's why what you need to do can so strongly affect what may be an appropriate console.

Also, what boards/brands would work best in this situation if we do go digital? If we get another analog board, I am looking at Soundcraft/Mackie/Yamaha boards. I'm looking at getting something that has at least 6 sets of Aux Sends.

The same issues as above apply here, in many cases you will have a certain number of physical outputs and a certain number of internal logical buses, how those relate and function is based on the console programming. So instead of a certain number of aux sends you may have a number of physical outputs that can be assigned to defined internal buses that can be used as an aux, matrix or group with this all depending on how the console is programmed.

As I've said in the past, this flexibility is both a strength and potential weakness with digital consoles. You are not limited to a fixed configuration and signal paths, allowing for great flexibility and creativity in configuring a console to a specific application. At the same time, it can also be difficult to identify the configuration and signal paths that are programmed without getting into the console programming.

 

[airkarol]

Take a look at the APB Dynasonics Pro Desk and Spectra series consoles.

 

[gcpsoundlight]

Quickly on brands -

Don't let brand loyalty cloud your judgement. Whilst I have a preference for mackie or soundcraft desks, I will use whatever suits the job.

My 2c

 

[jkowtko]

I'll use the standard reply for question like this -- what exactly do you have now, what are you trying to accomplish with the new board, and what is your budget?

I'm guessing you have the Mackie CFX-20 ... that's the only 20 channel board that is commonly used. It's a relatively low-end board, but has on-board effects. However the effects can easily be offloaded to a rack unit for under $200 ... The Lexicon MX200, for example, can be found for under $200 new, and closer to $100 used.

If you are upgrading from a CFX-20, if you have $1000 net to spend, I would suggest looking at an Allen & Heath GL2200 or GL2400 in the $1200-1500 range used, get a reverb unit like the MX200, and then sell off the CFX-20 and recoup maybe $400. These are analog boards but they have a solid reputation for live performance and should do you well. The Soundcraft LX7 is also in this league, but the A&H boards have a few more handy features.

If you have $2000 net to spend, the "standard" entry-level digital board to buy is a Yamaha 01v96. It has more features than you will ever use, and is designed specifically for stereo or multi-track recording, but works really well for live performance. It is expandable to 40 channels of input, you can change patching and routing on-the-fly with the push of a button, and it has four on-board effects engines at your disposal.

I own an 01v96 and work with analog boards as well, and am very happy with all the ones mentioned above when used for what they're supposed to do

Oh, and I've run feeds to the video camera both off auxes, and split off the main outs. It depends on what the camera guy wants to capture. (With aux outs you can change the mix for the camera to be different from the main mix, such as removing the reverb)

-- John

 

[mixmaster]

Hello...I'm new here to the forum and have some questions. I'm also a bit of newbie when it comes to sound boards and specs. I've usually come in with something setup, in my current situation, I'm setting up something new.

My church is looking to upgrade, specifically recording video using a camera and a sound board. I believe the Pastor has purchased a Canon XH A1 HD camera but I'm not sure how the sound will go to the camera. Should I use the Aux Sends to send that signal to the camera and then a send from the camera to a recording device?

Also, we are upgrading our sound board from a Mackie 20 channel to one with 32-48 channels, preferably with built in effects. With a digital board, would I be able to change Chan 1 from vocal 1 to vocal 3 by a press of a button midstream?

Also, what boards/brands would work best in this situation if we do go digital? If we get another analog board, I am looking at Soundcraft/Mackie/Yamaha boards. I'm looking at getting something that has at least 6 sets of Aux Sends.

Ideas?


Thanks!

Several good points already. Specifically looking at yor desire to have on-board fx, why? What fx specifically?
In the analog world, I'm yet to find any on board fx patch that I really like, and what effects are out there are mostly just different kinds of verbs. Off the top of my head I can't event think of a 40 channel analog board that has on-board fx....hmmm.... Most manufactures of consoles that size assume that if you you want a big-boy board you will probably also have other big-boy toys, like a rack of outboard fx specific to your needs. In the 32 to 48 channel analog boards APB/Spectra is king, but any of the offerings from Alan and Heath and Soundcraft will serve you just as well without the price tag. I've never been a big fan of Yamaha analogs, they are noisy and I personally find them to be crowded and uncomfortable to work with. I've never been a big fan of Mackie either, as I've had a lot of bad luck with their smaller consoles. In fairness, I've never used anything bigger than 16 channels in a Mackie though so YMMV.
In the digital world, that all changes of course. Even at the small end of the scale with the 01v family or the Presonus Studio-whatever, you can expect comps and good eq on all inputs and some sort of on-board fx engines as standard. These are reasonable quality dynamics and fx. Looking a little farther up the digital food chain are the Yamaha ls9 which come in 16 or 32 channels on the fader layer, plus that many digital inputs. These boards come stock with up to 4 stereo effects in addition to the 2 dynamics processors (comp and gate) on each channel. Aux count is 16 mono, with the ability to do stereo pairs of sends if needed. I think Roland has a similar offering, although I'm not familiar with it, and I think the newest baby i-Live from Allen and Heath would be in that same area of channel count, although with a considerably higher price tag. Digital boards also usually include digital outputs which may or may not be an asset based on how you end up assembling the rest of your recording rig.
Speaking specifically about the LS9 and patching. My board has 32 xlr inputs and 16 xlr outputs. these are physical jacks that I can plug a cord into. There are 2 16 channel expansion slots for up to 32 more inputs or outputs, connectivity based on your needs. The signal from any physical jack can be routed to any fader, or combination of faders with the click of a button. This means that If I want to control the signal present at input 1 with fader 12 I can do that. Or I can move that signal to a different fader when I change my mind, without having to physically move the jacks on the back of the board. Outputs operate the same way. Auxes, direct outs, mix, and mono all are patchable to any combination of the 16 output jacks AND/OR digital outputs if you have the right expansion card installed.
Matt

 

[museav]

Looking a little farther up the digital food chain are the Yamaha ls9 which come in 16 or 32 channels on the fader layer, plus that many digital inputs. These boards come stock with up to 4 stereo effects in addition to the 2 dynamics processors (comp and gate) on each channel. Aux count is 16 mono, with the ability to do stereo pairs of sends if needed.

This is what I was talking about, the LS9 does not have 16 auxes, it has 16 mix buses, 8 matrix buses, left and right cue buses and left, center (mono) and right main buses. The LS9-16 has 8 analog outputs and one card slot, the LS9-32 has 16 analog outputs and two card slots. How those buses and outputs are used and relate is all in the programming. Those 16 mix buses can essentially be programmed as pre or post fade auxes (variable level) or as mono or stereo groups (fixed level, post fade and post mute/on) for each input channel. So the 16 mix buses could be used as 16 auxes or 16 groups or in any combination. You could even have some channels assigned to a bus like it was a group bus and other channels assigned as though it was an aux bus. Then you have to consider how the outputs are assigned to the buses, you have I believe 29 or 30 signals available to be patched to the outputs via programming, so you may well have more potential signals than you have physical outputs. The point is that how many auxes, groups, matrix outputs, main outputs, etc. you have is determined by the console architecture and the programming. So you could have 16 auxes but you may have none or anywhere in between, that all depends on the physical I/O available and the programmed configuration.

A couple of major factors in any discussion like this are how the console integrates into the rest of the system and the budget. You say you want to move from a 20 channel board to 32-48 channels but what else is happening that is related to the doubling or so of console inputs? Are those all mono input? And you note wanting six aux sends but what outputs do you need other than six aux sends? And of course how much you have to spend can make a significant difference in what might be practical or recommended. Then there are other potential concerns such if there are constraints on the physical size of the console or if you want direct outs on each channel, mute groups, DCAs/VCAs and so forth. Not knowing anything about factors like these makes it very difficult to provide relevant recommendations.

 

[tromboneking]

Okay...sorry for the delay, had some issues with my login...

We currently have a Mackie CFX20 w/effects analog board that does the job, for now. We are looking at setting a camera to record to DVD (Canon XH A1) and also have at least 2 copies being recorded at the same time (my Pastor wants to have a backup copy just in case one of the disks are bad) be it one copy in the camera and one copy onto a DVD recorder or 2 DVD recorders. We also want to set up monitors (probably no more than 2 small ones) so we need the sends for those. So we need enough aux sends for a CD player, a camera (which I think someone mentioned does have a DVD recording ability), an additional DVD recorder, and preffably a computer for recording vocal as well (I've leaned the wrong way a few times and stopped the CD recording).

I need a bare minimum of 12 channels, including the 17/18, 19/20 channels (I can't remember the name of what they call those last two channels...Stereo channels?) but have gone and used all 16 of the normal channels and have still needed at least one or two more. I am thinking of a 32 channel, which might be overkill, but would definately be more than enough. My goal is not have to replace our current board and a 32 channel would be that board considering the size of the church building.

gpforet and museav, basically what I mean is this. The Head Pastor has his own channel which has the channel eq settings that seem to sound good for him. Unfortunately, if one of the Associate Pastors or a guest speaker (or even teh Sunday School Teacher) uses the wireless, it sounds odd with the Head Pastor's eq settings. So what I do, is unplug the cable from the wireless receiver from channel 6 to channel 7. Being that it is not the Head Pastor, I can play around without fear of having to change channel 6 eq settings back. The same applies for our backup singers. Because each of them have a certain vocal quality, their eq settings are set up at a particular channel.

I *should* check to make sure that the proper singer has the proper mic but I don't always have the time, plus the cleaning crews move the mics around and don't put them back in the same spot (which I assume if they are inline like we normally have it, I have assumed it was moved back to the proper spot), the Pastors take the equipment and use it at other locations (don't ask) w/o letting me know beforehand that they did so I have come in on sundays with half the equipment missing and having to track down the missing parts, etc... Anyway, I was hoping that a digital board would help since I could change the channels instantly and wouldn't have to plug/unplug if I don't have time to check the mics. Oh, and since the worship team and the worship leader gets in at 5 minutes before service, there is no sound check...which would help me out a lot.

I'm really only looking for different types of reverb effects as the majority of the other effects won't work in our church set up.

Budget-wise, I'm thinking between 1000-4000 but would like to try and keep it around 3500 or below (which won't be a problem for an analog board but would be pushing it for a digital board). The people working the board are going to be amatuers like myself so I'm thinking I'd probably want to lean more toward an analog board due to smaller learning curve.

I've been doing some research and I've been looking at the Onyx 32.4 Bus as a possible replacement but would like to check into other brands and possibilities.

Thanks for all the help!

 

[TimmyP1955]

In an affordable analog console, the Allen & Heath GL series are my first choice. (Whatever you get, make sure it has individual channel circuit boards, which rules out the standard Mackies, and I believe the Soundcraft LX as well.)

 

[Chris15]

So we need enough aux sends for a CD player, a camera (which I think someone mentioned does have a DVD recording ability), an additional DVD recorder, and preffably a computer for recording vocal as well (I've leaned the wrong way a few times and stopped the CD recording).

I think there may be an easier option on some of this. I'd expect say the 2 DVD records to be wanting to be sent pretty much exactly the same thing, so there's no real point in using different buses for them, you could just split the output of the desk.

So what I do, is unplug the cable from the wireless receiver from channel 6 to channel 7.

If you're doing this then you might as well just split the mic and send it to both channels permanently. That way you use whichever channel strip is relevant for the current user and mute the other...

 

[jkowtko]

I'm really only looking for different types of reverb effects as the majority of the other effects won't work in our church set up.

An outboard (rack mount) effects unit will do you well here. The popular favorite seems to be the TC Electronics M-One, around $400 new ... but Lexicon is also well respected and makes the MPX and MX series that you can find new or used from $100 and up.

Budget-wise, I'm thinking between 1000-4000 but would like to try and keep it around 3500 or below (which won't be a problem for an analog board but would be pushing it for a digital board). The people working the board are going to be amatuers like myself so I'm thinking I'd probably want to lean more toward an analog board due to smaller learning curve.

I've been doing some research and I've been looking at the Onyx 32.4 Bus as a possible replacement but would like to check into other brands and possibilities.

That's quite a spread ... wish my theater had that type of budget for a board

You will probably find there is not much of a Mackie fan club on this forum.

Like others are saying, I would recommend the A&H GL2400-32 as a good well-featured board for analog. You will never regret having bought this board -- unless you determine that you really wanted to go digital, in which case the Yamaha 01v96 (also well recommended) is a great board with an amazing set of features for the price.

Can you find a hundred other boards that will do just about as well? Sure -- but people will be much more familiar with these two, and it may be easier to sell if you ever want to upgrade again in the future ...

 

[artsguy]

Hello...I'm new here to the forum and have some questions. I'm also a bit of newbie when it comes to sound boards and specs. I've usually come in with something setup, in my current situation, I'm setting up something new.

My church is looking to upgrade, specifically recording video using a camera and a sound board. I believe the Pastor has purchased a Canon XH A1 HD camera but I'm not sure how the sound will go to the camera. Should I use the Aux Sends to send that signal to the camera and then a send from the camera to a recording device?

Also, we are upgrading our sound board from a Mackie 20 channel to one with 32-48 channels, preferably with built in effects. With a digital board, would I be able to change Chan 1 from vocal 1 to vocal 3 by a press of a button midstream?

Also, what boards/brands would work best in this situation if we do go digital? If we get another analog board, I am looking at Soundcraft/Mackie/Yamaha boards. I'm looking at getting something that has at least 6 sets of Aux Sends.

Ideas?


Thanks!

I'm new to this board as well and we are having the same issues with recording our services on our current camera which has a crappy internal mic (let's just say it's been a religious experience using it). We currently have it mounted at the back of the sanctuary (sometimes it's manned other times it's not). I've been doing some digging around on this forum and have found out a few things that may help me. Most of the stuff you are needing is here on this forum...what a great resource you guys (and girls) are!!

We have a Mackie Onyx 32/4 and are currently looking at updating our camera to a Canon RF30 (what I could do with the camera your minister has...but no budget for that item). If I'm hearing you guys correctly I can just purchase a 1/8" to 1/4 stereo adaptor plug for about $2 plus a 1/8" to 1/8" cable for about $5 plus the camera for about $400 and i'm good to go just by plugging the adaptor plug into the aux send onto my Mackie and the other 1/8" end into the mic input on the Camera?

I'm going to try this out and let you know how things go. If I'm heading down the wrong path let me know. Our church has used nothing but Mackie for mixing (1604 VLZ3, 2404 VLZ3 and now the Onyx 32-4) as we've grown, but I've been only doing sound off and on for about a year (I'm trained in lighting, not audio). I'm not sure what you are wanting to achieve by sending a feed from the camera to an external recording device when the camcorder is already a recording device.

 

[museav]

We have a Mackie Onyx 32/4 and are currently looking at updating our camera to a Canon RF30 (what I could do with the camera your minister has...but no budget for that item). If I'm hearing you guys correctly I can just purchase a 1/8" to 1/4 stereo adaptor plug for about $2 plus a 1/8" to 1/8" cable for about $5 plus the camera for about $400 and i'm good to go just by plugging the adaptor plug into the aux send onto my Mackie and the other 1/8" end into the mic input on the Camera?

Do you mean the Canon HF R30? If so the manual states "You can also use commerically available condenser microphones with their own power supply. You can connect almost any stereo microphone with a 3.5mm plug but audio recording levels may vary." The specifications also suggest the input is looking for a -64dBV level. There is a mic attenuator function but it is not clear exactly what it does or how much attenuation is applied. The Onyx 32.4 aux outputs appear to be balanced 1/4" TRS with a +4dBu nominal, +21dBu maximum output level.

Putting that into simpler terms, the mixer output is a mono balanced line level signal while the camera input is apparently an unbalanced stereo microphone input, thus you do not want to run the console output into the camera with a simple 1/4" TRS to 3.5mm (1/8") TRS adapter. It might not damage anything, that depends on the internal circuitry of both devices, but it would very likely not work well.

I typically recommend something like DXA-2T | BEACHTEK and adapting the mixer output to one of the camera adapter input channels but I have a feeling the $179 price might be an issue here. Unfortunately, signficantly less expensive options would likely involve multiple adapters and a pad or transformer and may still not provide an acceptable result.

 

[artsguy]

Do you mean the Canon HF R30? If so the manual states "You can also use commerically available condenser microphones with their own power supply. You can connect almost any stereo microphone with a 3.5mm plug but audio recording levels may vary." The specifications also suggest the input is looking for a -64dBV level. There is a mic attenuator function but it is not clear exactly what it does or how much attenuation is applied. The Onyx 32.4 aux outputs appear to be balanced 1/4" TRS with a +4dBu nominal, +21dBu maximum output level.

Putting that into simpler terms, the mixer output is a mono balanced line level signal while the camera input is apparently an unbalanced stereo microphone input, thus you do not want to run the console output into the camera with a simple 1/4" TRS to 3.5mm (1/8") TRS adapter. It might not damage anything, that depends on the internal circuitry of both devices, but it would very likely not work well.

I typically recommend something like DXA-2T | BEACHTEK and adapting the mixer output to one of the camera adapter input channels but I have a feeling the $179 price might be an issue here. Unfortunately, signficantly less expensive options would likely involve multiple adapters and a pad or transformer and may still not provide an acceptable result.

Thanks for the quick, detailed update museav! This product is manufactured in Kelowna, BC about an 8 hr drive from where I'm located...and go figure, I was just there over Christmas. I will call them and finalize any further connectivity questions before purchasing the product directly from them. If this will solve the audio quality in our video recordings the $189 price tag is not an issue. Cheers!

 

[TimmyP1955]

These days, I'd go digital. Depending on needs and budget (and the importance of using preset scenes): The Presonus StudioLive 24, Behringer X32, Allen & Heath GLD, and Roland 480 would be what I'd look at. Of course there are more expensive choices if you need them. If funds are tight, my personal choice would be the X32. If there's 10K available, then the GLD and Roland would be worth a look to see if they offer anything that the X32 does not.