CA Title 24, Houselights control, New Construction

macsound

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2018
Location
San Francisco, CA
Hi there
Working with a group thats building out a space that used to be a warehouse and turning it into a flexible performance venue in California.
I know Title 24 (thankfully) excludes the stage lighting, but I'm trying to figure out how to effectively communicate to the architect and electrician the needs of theatrically controlled houselights.
Part of me just wants the architect's specified and compliant and artsy houselights to exist on some crappy circuit that is just for esthetics and then I add a bunch of LED Pars for actual lighting, but that seems excessive.

How do people deal with new construction's Title 24 requirements and somehow integrate those occupancy sensors with wall panels and DMX override?
 

RickR

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2009
Location
Spokane, WA the great "Inland Northwest"
My favorite solution is ETCs Paradigm architectural controller. I see it in many others designs as well. The short explanation is that it has all the functions built in, along wth extensive programming for customization to the site needs.

Wunder lighting http://www.wunderlc.com/ or ETC West, Tel: 323.461.0216, can help with the design and convincing the Architect.
 

Malabaristo

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2008
Location
Wisconsin
Rick is right that most of the problems that Title 24 adds are best solved on the controls side. You still need to keep a tight leash on the designers in order to make sure they're selecting products that will actually dim reasonably well (and then require demos to prove the manufacturer's claims on performance are accurate...). But, it is entirely possible to find fixtures that will meet the energy requirements and still have decent performance.

One big issue is that you're going to have occupancy sensors, and they're probably not going to cover the whole space perfectly. You need an intelligent control system to allow for bypassing those sensors when you don't want them doing anything unexpected. Likewise, you don't want to let a demand response signal confuse your audience by dimming the house lights before you're ready to start. A well-configured Paradigm system can help ease all of those headaches and more.
 

macsound

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2018
Location
San Francisco, CA
My favorite solution is ETCs Paradigm architectural controller. I see it in many others designs as well. The short explanation is that it has all the functions built in, along wth extensive programming for customization to the site needs.

Wunder lighting http://www.wunderlc.com/ or ETC West, Tel: 323.461.0216, can help with the design and convincing the Architect.
I know them. Dave and Johnny.
But on a more granular level, and since I'm already involved as a middleman between groups of the project, and since the houselights will be the only non-native DMX devices, I don't want to add a whole Unison system or whatever.
What device (brand or trade name) would a regular electrician typically spec for a large space's house light control?
 

SteveB

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2004
Location
Brooklyn, NY
I was thinking this as well. Just let them do non-dim high-bay lights that get used with no audience.
We recently had the plaster lath ceiling pulled out of our black box, down came the Uni-Strut hanging system as well as the decades old twist receptacle raceways. The powers-that-be listened to a bit of reason and are restoring with a pipe grid. Rather then installing a lot of dimmed circuits, we are putting in enough to use up our 96 dimmer Sensor, upgrading it to CEM3, putting in 12 Thru-Power modules (24 circuits), a boat load of Ethernet, a grid worth of LED floods, an Echo controller for the works, then buying Leprecon 6 pack dimmers for as needed add'l, a bunch of Altman PAR38 cans, LexE-Strings, etc..... That lets us put in "house" lights according to the seating layout - thrust, thrust the other way, round, stadium, etc..... The "house" lights become an extension of the stage lighting. And yes we have a stand alone emergency system.
 

Derickls

Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Location
Near LA
Thanks everyone for their swift, detailed and thought provoking responses.

Maybe a good followup question here:
Does anyone know of a non-entertainment brand and/or model of Title 24 compatible occupancy sensor system/controller.
There are special title 24 rules for entertainment venues the cover more than just the stage lighting. These exemptions override the requirement for occupancy and photocells, if there are windows, in that portion of the building. You may have to push to discover how your architect and engineer have defined the space.
 

FMEng

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Fight Leukemia
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Location
Tacoma, WA
The last time I was involved in designing a building, the architect had an electrical engineer do any of that sort of design beyond the aesthetics. There could also be a lighting engineer involved, probably from the same firm as the EE. I would ask to speak directly with the EE, because that's the person who knows the codes and will write the bid specs. Even if you decide to go with stage lighting for the house, the EE will be able to make sure it's code compliant and that the power receptacles wind up where you need them.
 

RickR

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2009
Location
Spokane, WA the great "Inland Northwest"
But on a more granular level, and since I'm already involved as a middleman between groups of the project, and since the houselights will be the only non-native DMX devices, I don't want to add a whole Unison system or whatever.
What device (brand or trade name) would a regular electrician typically spec for a large space's house light control?
I do exactly this regularly.
  • Non entertainment systems won't deal with DMX,
  • You don't need a Unison dimmer rack, just an ERn. It's the processor that matters.
  • Separate EM lights is fine but there are also DMX emergency devices.
  • ETC Echo products may do the job, but if they can't Paradigm can. It can talk to almost any other device!
  • ALL this should be worked out with the EE, not the architect. The architect is in charge but doesn't know everything , that's why they have consultants!
  • The sales folks can educate you on most of this far better than a few posts here.
 

rwhealey

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2008
Location
Denver
I do exactly this regularly.
  • Non entertainment systems won't deal with DMX,
  • You don't need a Unison dimmer rack, just an ERn. It's the processor that matters.
  • Separate EM lights is fine but there are also DMX emergency devices.
  • ETC Echo products may do the job, but if they can't Paradigm can. It can talk to almost any other device!
  • ALL this should be worked out with the EE, not the architect. The architect is in charge but doesn't know everything , that's why they have consultants!
  • The sales folks can educate you on most of this far better than a few posts here.
+1 to all

Also, I recommend you start by telling the electrical engineer and lighting designer that you need a DMX-controllable fixture with 0.1% (dim to black) capability. They may say no way, but I have had many agree right away. If they do agree you will have saved a lot of trouble.

A note on EE vs lighting designer vs architect - in many of my projects the architect acts as the lighting designer, selecting the goals of the lighting and sometimes the fixtures. Other projects have dedicated lighting designers, and in others the electrical engineer is also the lighting designer. Either way, the technical design including circuiting and controls always end up in the electrical drawing set - so the EE is the person who really needs to get your requirements.
 

mbrown3039

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2018
Location
vegas, baby..!
Although I am a fan of ETC, I am not fan of their cost. Lutron systems are much more budget-friendly, your EE probably already knows them well and yes, they do have a DMX-to-Lutron protocol converter. I am most familiar with GrafikEye products, but that may be bigger than you need -- call Lutron directly and ask for design support.

Also, don't be surprised if the EE doesn't know what a company switch is. I usually have to help them spec that sort of stuff as well (but it's worth it to get a working theater on the first try). Good luck! M