Comb Filtering
- Thread starterSchniapereli
- Start date
Just to give Andy a hard time ;-)
I you look in bigger dictionary you will see;
Main Entry: po·di·um
Pronunciation: 'pO-dE-&m
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural podiums or po·dia /-dE-&/
Etymology: Latin -- more at PEW
1 : a low wall serving as a foundation or terrace wall: as a : one around the arena of an ancient amphitheater serving as a base for the tiers of seats b : the masonry under the stylobate of a temple
2 a : a dais especially for an orchestral conductor b : LECTERN
SOOOOO it is infact acceptable to use it as also meaning Lectern
Sharyn
I you look in bigger dictionary you will see;
Main Entry: po·di·um
Pronunciation: 'pO-dE-&m
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural podiums or po·dia /-dE-&/
Etymology: Latin -- more at PEW
1 : a low wall serving as a foundation or terrace wall: as a : one around the arena of an ancient amphitheater serving as a base for the tiers of seats b : the masonry under the stylobate of a temple
2 a : a dais especially for an orchestral conductor b : LECTERN
SOOOOO it is infact acceptable to use it as also meaning Lectern
Sharyn
LOL, in the same spirit, it's not acceptable, per se, it's just commonly used enough that the editors of Merriam-Webster decided it should be included. A dictionary doesn't reference proper usage alone, but also common usage. Especially with a secondary definition, the fact that the definition appears doesn't mean it's a correct use of the term, it just means that enough people misuse it that way that the dictionary would be incomplete if it didn't include reference to that usage.
If you look up "ain't" in the dictionary, you'll find it. You'll also find "irregardless". Even so, neither is considered a "real" word by those who care, and if you use them in a term paper, your teacher will without a doubt mark you down for it (I know you're not a student Sharyn, just making an analogy
Likewise, M-W's second definition for the phrase "begs the question" (actually, it's listed there as "beg the question", but it's commonly used as "begs...") is technically considered an incorrect usage of the phrase. It's included there because the phrase is so commonly misused that it's essentially become a de facto definition, regardless of the original meaning of the phrase. See http://www.mtannoyances.com/?p=445 for a good summary. (Yup, that's my other grammar pet peeve, misusing that phrase; it drives me nuts that one of my favorite songs by one of my favorite bands--Eddie From Ohio's "Number Six Driver"--misuses the phrase in its chorus. Argh.)
--Andy
If you look up "ain't" in the dictionary, you'll find it. You'll also find "irregardless". Even so, neither is considered a "real" word by those who care, and if you use them in a term paper, your teacher will without a doubt mark you down for it (I know you're not a student Sharyn, just making an analogy
Likewise, M-W's second definition for the phrase "begs the question" (actually, it's listed there as "beg the question", but it's commonly used as "begs...") is technically considered an incorrect usage of the phrase. It's included there because the phrase is so commonly misused that it's essentially become a de facto definition, regardless of the original meaning of the phrase. See http://www.mtannoyances.com/?p=445 for a good summary. (Yup, that's my other grammar pet peeve, misusing that phrase; it drives me nuts that one of my favorite songs by one of my favorite bands--Eddie From Ohio's "Number Six Driver"--misuses the phrase in its chorus. Argh.)
--Andy
Last edited:
Actually to have more fun with this, in fact the english language is base on this incorporation of common usage into the language.
The most memorable example for me is that Bald was properly used to describe someone with white hair, hence the name bald eagle. Over time it was used to describe someone with no hair.
Typically once it makes it into MW or Oxford, it is considered proper
If you look today you will see it is listed as the 2nd definition
If you look at the 1913 dictionary you will see that NONE of the definitions we are talking about are even included, it is used for the wall and foot definition
http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?word=Podium
SO by your logic all of the common usages today are incorrect
If you look at the Oxford on line it shows that in North America it is used as meaning lectern
http://www.askoxford.com/results/?v...570&textsearchtype=exact&sortorder=score,name
Lol
Sharyn
The most memorable example for me is that Bald was properly used to describe someone with white hair, hence the name bald eagle. Over time it was used to describe someone with no hair.
Typically once it makes it into MW or Oxford, it is considered proper
If you look today you will see it is listed as the 2nd definition
If you look at the 1913 dictionary you will see that NONE of the definitions we are talking about are even included, it is used for the wall and foot definition
http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?word=Podium
SO by your logic all of the common usages today are incorrect
If you look at the Oxford on line it shows that in North America it is used as meaning lectern
http://www.askoxford.com/results/?v...570&textsearchtype=exact&sortorder=score,name
Lol
Sharyn
Last edited:
LOL, Sharyn, one of these days we'll finally cross paths and have to share a round of drinks of some sort
DarthFader
Member
Just joined up today and this thread caught my eye. Have to agree with the idea that no amount of electronics can replace quick fingers on the faders. What I haven't seen mentioned is that when two actors are very close, you might very well need only one mike to get the job done. If for example you have a song with two actors singing directly to each other you can turn one mike off completely, and just make small adjustments to the fader as they switch. You can listen to both mikes and see which sounds better. Sometimes you will find that the better solution is to juggle the faders on both, but make it as easy on yourself as you can.
An iteresting thing to try is to punch down the phase button when the comb filtering sounds the worst and hear the problem go away. The heartbreak comes seconds later when the actors move a half inch and the problem is back worse than ever
Another couple thoughts that might help. Since we are fairly small and a pretty tight knit group on the shows we produce I can maintain a relationship with the music director and get my two cents in as early as audtions. A single weak voiced actor on stage can really upset your mix. Since he/she is weak, their mike gain must be higher, and other actors bleed into your mix at a higher level. It's entirely possible to see more strong actor audio in the weak actor channel than in his own channel. This really upsets the applecart when you are expecting a few db of gain reduction to resolve the interference and strong guy is still overpowering weak guys mike. The same people may still be cast but we establish early that problems may result that we may not be able to resolve to everyone's satisfaction. It makes it easier down the road if you get into a situation were a small change in blocking could make a big difference in the sound of the number. Of course not every production situation allows that kind of cooperation.
The other thought is that adding a few ms of delay can _change_ the comb filtering problem. Its sort of like increasing the distance between the actors so the actual physical distance where you get objectionable filtering issues will change ...maybe to somewhere allows the scene to play better. In a pinch, try it and dial the delay around between 2 and 10 ms and see if it helps.
3. My dad tells me that a tech told him that the best place for a mic is between the eyes (where the unibrow is on most actors) because of the sinuses vibrating. Is this true? I did not see them like that on wicked. Is it just harder to hide?...
Not sure about that because I don't think I could sell that visual to our directors. Your mileage may vary. There are some shows where being able to see the mike is OK, but most often considerable effort goes into finding a place that sounds OK and looks good from row five back.
5. Do they glue the mic down, or tape it? (could not see tape)
The name of one of the tapes we use is "Transderm" but most clear first aid tapes are similar. We use an alcohol wipe to clean off any makeup, oil, sweat etc, and if the actor sweats a lot we wipe again with a cotton ball wetted with anti-perspirant. Let that dry throughly before you continue. After the mike is in place, your makeup crew can carefully cover the tape to help hide it. (It has a texture that helps it blend in and makes it accept the makeup better.) I like them just out of the hairline so that just the capsul is visable and you have enough room to keep the tape out of the hairline. The halo rigs as described here work well in some cases.
6. I have heard other places that they store their mics in an airtight box with water absorbant packets. We currently hang the mic upside down with the connector end between 2 screws in the wall. The cords had been coiled with the packs before, and this was supposed to help straighten them out. It hasn't worked very well so far. Do they coil them up in the boxes, or do they get really long and straight boxes? (if they really do that) Is our method of storing lavs upside down on a wall a good system?
I can't comment on the MKE's since all our lavs are Countyman B3s with a few E6s. The B3s are extremely rugged, but the cords take a real beating from the use they get and contact with all kinds of hair gunk and makeup. We have yet to loose one to anything other than cable failure. A five dollar lighted magnifying viewer is a good investment. If you look very closely at a mike that sounds bad, you will usually find either hair spray or makeup in the cap grill. It's never easy, but always possible to clean it out. Its a good idea to keep a few spare caps on hand in case one departs during a show. As someone else mentioned even one drop of sweat is a mike killer. You aren't likely to get the mike back in the show that performance. Spares are important. Ater drying out some B3s for the third or fourth time we found they sounded really bad. (Accumulation of dried out salts from perspiration?) We really had no options since they were no longer usable. Extreme measures seemed reasonable so I just dunked them in distilled water and swished them around. After that I used a fresh cup of distilled water and more agitation. I hung them out to dry under a 40W orchestra stand light and by the next day they were pefect again.
We use a board with pegs on it to store the mikes during the show. Each peg is spaced far enough to allow the coils to be about 2.5 in diameter. An inch or so of pipe cleaner is wrapped around the coil to keep them from "mating" while they are stored. Each peg has a number, and each mike has a number on the connector so we can see at a glance who has or has not returned their mike. Belt packs (Shure U1) live in a plain old clear front shoe bag. Again slots are numbered and the packs are numbers on the packs show through the clear bag. Every actor gets the same mike and pack every show and we have everyones phone number on record. (When we did Wizard of OZ we had four B3s that got "lost" prompting me to start this system) Although I encourage actors to have our backstage audio guy take the mike off for them, some actors that have been with us for many shows take their own off carefully. Kids tend to rip it off by the cord Its hard to get through to a kid that the "wire thingie" and the "box" cost 10x the price of my first car. Regardless every actor is responsible for verrifying that their mike and belt pack are back in the numbered location. We have established that we will call the actor back to the theater regardless of the time if thier hardware is discovered missing.
7. When miked over the ear, I heard they should be about 2 cm past the ear. Is this true? We have always put ours more forward. We have MKE2's but they are black, so could they pick up well and still be well hidden?
When over the ear is the only option, I like the E6 which of course is very close to the mouth. Another thing you can try is making an over the ear holder out of light solid copper wire with the cord and wire wrapped in flesh colored tape. You can use some silicone tubing over the ear part to make it more comfortable. The advantage is that you can adjust the mike position up and down the wire till you find the best spot and then trim it to length and cover it with tape. Trial and error gets it done when measurements won't. For less cooperative actors we keep a staple gun handy to secure wire and capsules directly to the skull
An iteresting thing to try is to punch down the phase button when the comb filtering sounds the worst and hear the problem go away. The heartbreak comes seconds later when the actors move a half inch and the problem is back worse than ever
Another couple thoughts that might help. Since we are fairly small and a pretty tight knit group on the shows we produce I can maintain a relationship with the music director and get my two cents in as early as audtions. A single weak voiced actor on stage can really upset your mix. Since he/she is weak, their mike gain must be higher, and other actors bleed into your mix at a higher level. It's entirely possible to see more strong actor audio in the weak actor channel than in his own channel. This really upsets the applecart when you are expecting a few db of gain reduction to resolve the interference and strong guy is still overpowering weak guys mike. The same people may still be cast but we establish early that problems may result that we may not be able to resolve to everyone's satisfaction. It makes it easier down the road if you get into a situation were a small change in blocking could make a big difference in the sound of the number. Of course not every production situation allows that kind of cooperation.
The other thought is that adding a few ms of delay can _change_ the comb filtering problem. Its sort of like increasing the distance between the actors so the actual physical distance where you get objectionable filtering issues will change ...maybe to somewhere allows the scene to play better. In a pinch, try it and dial the delay around between 2 and 10 ms and see if it helps.
3. My dad tells me that a tech told him that the best place for a mic is between the eyes (where the unibrow is on most actors) because of the sinuses vibrating. Is this true? I did not see them like that on wicked. Is it just harder to hide?...
Not sure about that because I don't think I could sell that visual to our directors. Your mileage may vary. There are some shows where being able to see the mike is OK, but most often considerable effort goes into finding a place that sounds OK and looks good from row five back.
5. Do they glue the mic down, or tape it? (could not see tape)
The name of one of the tapes we use is "Transderm" but most clear first aid tapes are similar. We use an alcohol wipe to clean off any makeup, oil, sweat etc, and if the actor sweats a lot we wipe again with a cotton ball wetted with anti-perspirant. Let that dry throughly before you continue. After the mike is in place, your makeup crew can carefully cover the tape to help hide it. (It has a texture that helps it blend in and makes it accept the makeup better.) I like them just out of the hairline so that just the capsul is visable and you have enough room to keep the tape out of the hairline. The halo rigs as described here work well in some cases.
6. I have heard other places that they store their mics in an airtight box with water absorbant packets. We currently hang the mic upside down with the connector end between 2 screws in the wall. The cords had been coiled with the packs before, and this was supposed to help straighten them out. It hasn't worked very well so far. Do they coil them up in the boxes, or do they get really long and straight boxes? (if they really do that) Is our method of storing lavs upside down on a wall a good system?
I can't comment on the MKE's since all our lavs are Countyman B3s with a few E6s. The B3s are extremely rugged, but the cords take a real beating from the use they get and contact with all kinds of hair gunk and makeup. We have yet to loose one to anything other than cable failure. A five dollar lighted magnifying viewer is a good investment. If you look very closely at a mike that sounds bad, you will usually find either hair spray or makeup in the cap grill. It's never easy, but always possible to clean it out. Its a good idea to keep a few spare caps on hand in case one departs during a show. As someone else mentioned even one drop of sweat is a mike killer. You aren't likely to get the mike back in the show that performance. Spares are important. Ater drying out some B3s for the third or fourth time we found they sounded really bad. (Accumulation of dried out salts from perspiration?) We really had no options since they were no longer usable. Extreme measures seemed reasonable so I just dunked them in distilled water and swished them around. After that I used a fresh cup of distilled water and more agitation. I hung them out to dry under a 40W orchestra stand light and by the next day they were pefect again.
We use a board with pegs on it to store the mikes during the show. Each peg is spaced far enough to allow the coils to be about 2.5 in diameter. An inch or so of pipe cleaner is wrapped around the coil to keep them from "mating" while they are stored. Each peg has a number, and each mike has a number on the connector so we can see at a glance who has or has not returned their mike. Belt packs (Shure U1) live in a plain old clear front shoe bag. Again slots are numbered and the packs are numbers on the packs show through the clear bag. Every actor gets the same mike and pack every show and we have everyones phone number on record. (When we did Wizard of OZ we had four B3s that got "lost" prompting me to start this system) Although I encourage actors to have our backstage audio guy take the mike off for them, some actors that have been with us for many shows take their own off carefully. Kids tend to rip it off by the cord
Its hard to get through to a kid that the "wire thingie" and the "box" cost 10x the price of my first car. Regardless every actor is responsible for verrifying that their mike and belt pack are back in the numbered location. We have established that we will call the actor back to the theater regardless of the time if thier hardware is discovered missing. 7. When miked over the ear, I heard they should be about 2 cm past the ear. Is this true? We have always put ours more forward. We have MKE2's but they are black, so could they pick up well and still be well hidden?
When over the ear is the only option, I like the E6 which of course is very close to the mouth. Another thing you can try is making an over the ear holder out of light solid copper wire with the cord and wire wrapped in flesh colored tape. You can use some silicone tubing over the ear part to make it more comfortable. The advantage is that you can adjust the mike position up and down the wire till you find the best spot and then trim it to length and cover it with tape. Trial and error gets it done when measurements won't. For less cooperative actors we keep a staple gun handy to secure wire and capsules directly to the skull
Last edited:
howlingwolf487
Active Member
AMEN BROTHER! Oh, let's not forget: they're LAMPS not LIGHTBULBS...
Similar threads
