Cue lights...?
- Thread starterDiarmuid
- Start date
JahJahwarrior
Active Member
the project boxes were just abut the perfect size. Had trouble fitting in the large switch I got though, they were just barely tell enough. smallest I could find at the local 'Shack.
other than that, some resistors, box of various LED's, a few LED holder/mounting things, a power jack and plug for my wallwart, the two project boxes were already mentioned, and a heavy duty switch. I had two XLR cables which were dead in the middle, I just used the ends of those.
if anyone really wants one that's simple like this (I know people sell really nice big systems, this is really simple and not too fancy) I would be willing to make some and sell them at cost. I can make them for maybe about $15, depending on parts, if people wanted one, I'd order some parts from Jameco or something, rather than going to radioshack, I think that will lower the price. I paid $20 in parts, but some camein multiples, others were only single items.
the axe? LP style, but she's a Hamer Slammer, cheap beginner kind of thing. They sent me new pickups though, when the stock ones turned out to be total crap that was unpotted (or atleast, the potting sucked. I had feedback anytime I was within 15 feet of my amp almost regardless of volume because of that...), which was nice of them, some Seymour Duncaen designed, not actually seymour duncan, but like, a cheaper version of them, I guess designed by SD and made by Hamer.
nice git, works well with my Flextone II.
other than that, some resistors, box of various LED's, a few LED holder/mounting things, a power jack and plug for my wallwart, the two project boxes were already mentioned, and a heavy duty switch. I had two XLR cables which were dead in the middle, I just used the ends of those.
if anyone really wants one that's simple like this (I know people sell really nice big systems, this is really simple and not too fancy) I would be willing to make some and sell them at cost. I can make them for maybe about $15, depending on parts, if people wanted one, I'd order some parts from Jameco or something, rather than going to radioshack, I think that will lower the price. I paid $20 in parts, but some camein multiples, others were only single items.
the axe? LP style, but she's a Hamer Slammer, cheap beginner kind of thing. They sent me new pickups though, when the stock ones turned out to be total crap that was unpotted (or atleast, the potting sucked. I had feedback anytime I was within 15 feet of my amp almost regardless of volume because of that...), which was nice of them, some Seymour Duncaen designed, not actually seymour duncan, but like, a cheaper version of them, I guess designed by SD and made by Hamer.
nice git, works well with my Flextone II.
I have finally managed to convince my TD to let me make some cue lights, and was wondering, if the cue lights were intended to be going over about 100M of normal microphone cable (in our snake), would it be possible to have LED's at the end with the switches, or would this draw too much power away from the other LEDs and make them too dim?
Thanks in advance for your help.
Thanks in advance for your help.
Diarmuid said:
Depending upon the gauge of wire in your snake it shouldn't be too much of a resistive load. If you go back one page in this discussion you will see this covered and also some pictures of a completed project.
If you are using a 9V battery then a 390ohm resistor should be used for the LEDs. If they appear a little dim, reduce the value of the resistance. If you can attach a 9V battery to one end of the mic cable and then check the voltage at the other end.
JahJahwarrior
Active Member
So, you are saying that you would have, say, green and yellow lights on both ends, so that when you had the yellow light lit on the stage end, you'd also have a yellow light lit on the switch end? fairly simple, if you have a on-off-on switch, +X volts goes to centre, top goes to say yellow, bottom to green. I put my resitors on the stage end, so the line has 9 volt available in it, I am not sure if that could potentially harm a microphone plugged into a line that it was one, but I accidentially used the wrong ends anyways, so I'd need adaptors or a snake with XLR sends on the stage. All you do is parallel off of the on contact a 390 ohm resistor and whatever color LED you want to use.
ground
|
LED
|
resistor
|
power send to stage for light
|
|-resistor--LED---ground
|
top contact of switch aka +9vdc
same thing for bottom contact. Hope that make sense...you might try a little bit bigger of a project box, it gets really tight with the tiny ones. Also, some people have told me they would rather have two switches. That has the bonus of allowing both to be on at once: you can work out a code with four possible outcomes. none on means one thing, one on means another, the other on means yet another, and both on means something else. Radioshack also has some nifty switches meant for cars with the cool flip safety lid thing. If I did it again, I'd use those nifty switches, (they are two contact only, so I'd need two), and put another LED on the switch box so you can see there what you have on. I'd also use a bigger resistor on the power LED so it wasn't so bright. What'd be really nice is to manage some way to have an acknowledge button on the stage end--somehow when pushed it would short out the light on the switch end or something. It's beyond me, I might sound smart but I don't know too much about electricity and stuff. Mayhem? can you chime in and help me out here? If I could figure out how to do an acknowledge button, I'd definitely build another version.
ground
|
LED
|
resistor
|
power send to stage for light
|
|-resistor--LED---ground
|
top contact of switch aka +9vdc
same thing for bottom contact. Hope that make sense...you might try a little bit bigger of a project box, it gets really tight with the tiny ones. Also, some people have told me they would rather have two switches. That has the bonus of allowing both to be on at once: you can work out a code with four possible outcomes. none on means one thing, one on means another, the other on means yet another, and both on means something else. Radioshack also has some nifty switches meant for cars with the cool flip safety lid thing. If I did it again, I'd use those nifty switches, (they are two contact only, so I'd need two), and put another LED on the switch box so you can see there what you have on. I'd also use a bigger resistor on the power LED so it wasn't so bright. What'd be really nice is to manage some way to have an acknowledge button on the stage end--somehow when pushed it would short out the light on the switch end or something. It's beyond me, I might sound smart but I don't know too much about electricity and stuff. Mayhem? can you chime in and help me out here? If I could figure out how to do an acknowledge button, I'd definitely build another version.
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JahJahwarrior said:
With regards to an LED on both the send and receive boxes, that is fairly straight forward and all you would do is mount the switch, LEDs, resistor, battery and XLR into one your master box and then just the LEDs, resistor and XLR into the slave box. The output to the XLR in the master box is tapped from the switch side of the LED and in the diagram below, note the tap from the top LED crosses over the wire going to the bottom LED, not connected to it.
However, I am not sure exactly what benefit having the LEDs on the master box would be. Other than giving you a visual indicator of which position the switch is in.
The Slave box is essentially a DMX tester in construction with the only difference being that one of the LEDs is reverse polarity (and also the value of the resistor is different). As such, you could actually build it into a XLR plug.
Another variation would be to buy one of the flashing LEDs for the standby LED, as most people will see a flashing light before they see a static one.
An acknowledge system is a bit more tricky and I would need to find some time to sit down and figure it out. Although, if the cue is missed, that is a very clear indication that it wasn’t acknowledged! It is going to be difficult given only 3 connectors in a mic cable. Given the switch is on the master box, turning off the power in at the slave box will turn off the LEDs there but will not turn them off on the master, therefore not achieving anything. I’ll try to give it a bit more thought but at the moment I would say that you would need to have a least 4 connectors. On a lot of snakes, that is either going to mean using 2 amp sends or 2 mic channels.
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JahJahwarrior
Active Member
mayhem: what about a PIC chip thingy? I've worked a bit with them. Seems you could build a circuit and write a program that could allow it. Eh, I'm way too tired and bogged down with an english paper and definite integrals (I HATE MATH!) to think about it much just this second. Could you use two leads of the three to power two leds simply by reversing polarity? Put a diode in there to protect your led: depending on the polarity, different led's will light, and if there is no power at all, neither will light. same if both switches are up, I think....that could be bad...?? Then, use the third lead for acknowledge: it's simply a momentary push switch that lets the power go around their LED and back to you via the third lead. And, based on the polarity, and which line is ground at that instant, it would light one of your two LED's, showing you they acknowledge whatever message you just sent. The led's on your master controller would not light until they pushed the switch, and would only stay lit as long as they held it down.
possible, or am I crazy from caffeine and sore abs? (baseball conditioning)
possible, or am I crazy from caffeine and sore abs? (baseball conditioning)
Well that is possibly going to place it outside of the usability of a lot of people and probably not really worth the effort.
Another option would be to use a bi-colour LED (the two leg resistance dependant ones, not the three leg dual LED types) for the cue/go but that would require a trim resistor being used to adjust the resistance to accommodate long cable runs. You would then only need one power wire to deliver both cue and go, leaving the other to return the acknowledgement voltage through the third wire.
I would suggest just using a second circuit if you wanted an acknowledgement system as well.
Another option would be to use a bi-colour LED (the two leg resistance dependant ones, not the three leg dual LED types) for the cue/go but that would require a trim resistor being used to adjust the resistance to accommodate long cable runs. You would then only need one power wire to deliver both cue and go, leaving the other to return the acknowledgement voltage through the third wire.
I would suggest just using a second circuit if you wanted an acknowledgement system as well.
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JahJahwarrior
Active Member
but would it work? I'll try to draw a diagram sometime, right now I'm working on english 
A lot has been written on the technical hows, so I'm going to weigh in with a thought on some of the suggestions of the functional hows and how cue lights are used in professional situations.
The most efficient way to use lights, and avoid false starts or missed cues, is to use a single cue light as both the standby and the go. As a rule, every single situation, regional, touring, off-Broadway, and Broadway I've worked or observed in has used the action of turning the light on as the standby, and turning it off as the go cue.
Multiple colors are used for stage entrances and fly rails (the most I've seen are three) so that multiple movements can cued in close timing to each other (for example, on the fly rail, blue is for lines 5, 6, and 7 to fly out and 10 to come in; then red signals for 12 to fly out).
Also, when using incandescent bulbs, always double up...you don't want a blown lamp either not coming on at all or blowing in the standby and cuing the action early. The most common cue light you'll find in Broadway/Off-Broadway and touring situations is a low wattage colored incandescent bulb running on standard 120V, with two bulbs (each in protective cages like you'd find at a worksite) Y'd from the same connector (most commonly just a standard stagepin).
Another neat trick for fly rail cues is to use rope lights..two or three colors can be strung across the rail, and that way they can be clearly seen from anywhere on the rail without having to look away from the operating lines.
To add a bit more on the technical side, every show I've been on using cue lights in the last three years has just used some sort of panel with a number of standard wall switches connecting to pigtails or jacks to connect to the cue lights. There is often some sort of master or submaster chain worked out so that multiple cues can be triggered at once. One of the squints here will have to fill in the details of how that's usually worked out, since this squeak tries to stay far away from any cue light other than the one at the FOH console!
Hope this helps,
Andy
The most efficient way to use lights, and avoid false starts or missed cues, is to use a single cue light as both the standby and the go. As a rule, every single situation, regional, touring, off-Broadway, and Broadway I've worked or observed in has used the action of turning the light on as the standby, and turning it off as the go cue.
Multiple colors are used for stage entrances and fly rails (the most I've seen are three) so that multiple movements can cued in close timing to each other (for example, on the fly rail, blue is for lines 5, 6, and 7 to fly out and 10 to come in; then red signals for 12 to fly out).
Also, when using incandescent bulbs, always double up...you don't want a blown lamp either not coming on at all or blowing in the standby and cuing the action early. The most common cue light you'll find in Broadway/Off-Broadway and touring situations is a low wattage colored incandescent bulb running on standard 120V, with two bulbs (each in protective cages like you'd find at a worksite) Y'd from the same connector (most commonly just a standard stagepin).
Another neat trick for fly rail cues is to use rope lights..two or three colors can be strung across the rail, and that way they can be clearly seen from anywhere on the rail without having to look away from the operating lines.
To add a bit more on the technical side, every show I've been on using cue lights in the last three years has just used some sort of panel with a number of standard wall switches connecting to pigtails or jacks to connect to the cue lights. There is often some sort of master or submaster chain worked out so that multiple cues can be triggered at once. One of the squints here will have to fill in the details of how that's usually worked out, since this squeak tries to stay far away from any cue light other than the one at the FOH console!
Hope this helps,
Andy
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Good points Andy.
One issue here would appear to be the fact that the people wanting this system either do not have the ability or the money to put in a more elaborate system. As with the build your own headset thread, that is trying to find a workable medium between the ClearCom system and a couple of tin cans and some string, this is looking at a cheap and workable solution.
Whilst it is simply a control panel and 120V lamps the ability to run cables would appear to be the problem. As such, this little system can run down a snake which neither of us would advise for a high voltage application.
The use of 2 lights is a good idea and one that is easy to do if you remember to wire them up in parallel, not series. Can also be done with LEDs.
Your comment on the industry using a single lamp (or pair of lamps) for each cue (on/off) is a good bit of feedback and perhaps should be replicated for any system adapted for school use here. This also fees up that 3rd wire for the acknowledgement system, if that really is something that you want to build.
Now it is fairly straight forward to use a low voltage system to turn on some 120V lights by using a mains rated relay but that is something that you should really be supervised in building.
One issue here would appear to be the fact that the people wanting this system either do not have the ability or the money to put in a more elaborate system. As with the build your own headset thread, that is trying to find a workable medium between the ClearCom system and a couple of tin cans and some string, this is looking at a cheap and workable solution.
Whilst it is simply a control panel and 120V lamps the ability to run cables would appear to be the problem. As such, this little system can run down a snake which neither of us would advise for a high voltage application.
The use of 2 lights is a good idea and one that is easy to do if you remember to wire them up in parallel, not series. Can also be done with LEDs.
Your comment on the industry using a single lamp (or pair of lamps) for each cue (on/off) is a good bit of feedback and perhaps should be replicated for any system adapted for school use here. This also fees up that 3rd wire for the acknowledgement system, if that really is something that you want to build.
Now it is fairly straight forward to use a low voltage system to turn on some 120V lights by using a mains rated relay but that is something that you should really be supervised in building.
JahJahwarrior
Active Member
I definitely am not building something that is used on broadway--I know that, and trying to replicate more what they do is beyond my abilities. I'm working in a tiny, sort of crappy school theatre, working with administration and directors who would not be extremely happy with me trying to run new cables through walls, and who don't know the laws on anything. For example, I don't think I can legally add in circuit breakers and wiring (run in conduit along walls) because I'm not an electricion. I can move an outlet though, as long as I don't add any on. I think I could run conduit wherever, and just have a male 3prong edison cable sitting there to plug into wherever I want to put rented dimmer packs though. The school doesn't know about any of that, nor do they care. it's a small christian school an we rent the space from a small church. I just replaced all the lamps in the exit signs because they weren't working. My dad has donated some flourescent lamps (tax write off for him) and I've been working to change out the incandescents where I can. I'm probably the only one at the school who cares about how much electricity is wasted by turning on the cans in the ceiling along with the big mercury vapor lamps used to light the bulding.
This was mainly an attempt by me to see if I could build something someone on here suggested. It might have a practical use for me, it might not. I've also build a nifty intercom circuit. nothing amazing, but it allows me to use ordinary wired or wireless phones as a party line intercom. I realized that our school was not allowed to use FRS or GMRS radios, because of FCC laws. CB and some other type of radio that i can't think of the name for were both $100 or so per handheld. Cheap wireless phones are $15 each and the system is quite modular--you can use your own phones with it.
anyways, I could see how an acknowledge button could be nice, I like to know that people got the signal. Not necessary though. I could use a relay to use mains voltage but don't see it as necessary for me. Building another system isn't even necessary, I probably won't. This two light system works alright for me, for the applications I'm using it in. I also designed it to be quite portable, so I can take it to anywhere I go.
anyways, thanks very much andy and mayhem, you both have put alot more knowledge into my head!
This was mainly an attempt by me to see if I could build something someone on here suggested. It might have a practical use for me, it might not. I've also build a nifty intercom circuit. nothing amazing, but it allows me to use ordinary wired or wireless phones as a party line intercom. I realized that our school was not allowed to use FRS or GMRS radios, because of FCC laws. CB and some other type of radio that i can't think of the name for were both $100 or so per handheld. Cheap wireless phones are $15 each and the system is quite modular--you can use your own phones with it.
anyways, I could see how an acknowledge button could be nice, I like to know that people got the signal. Not necessary though. I could use a relay to use mains voltage but don't see it as necessary for me. Building another system isn't even necessary, I probably won't. This two light system works alright for me, for the applications I'm using it in. I also designed it to be quite portable, so I can take it to anywhere I go.
anyways, thanks very much andy and mayhem, you both have put alot more knowledge into my head!
saxman0317
Active Member
FxDrew
Member
With most touring broadway shows they use an on-standby and off-go configuration. They use small 5 watt lights (they come in a variety of colors), they are plugged into socket splitters (like a light bulb base twofer, so if one of the bulbs burn out during a show, you still have another light and you don't miss the cue). When the light is turned on by the stage manager, you are on 'Standby' when it's time for the cue to happen, the stage manager turns off the light as the 'GO'.
Another way to do this is to have one of those "Now Serving Number..." signs. The stage manager cues the number and then turns on another light under the sign to go into 'Standby' and when it's time for the cue, the stage manager turns off the light to 'GO'
I saw a cool way to do Fly Rail lights at the Barbra Mann Theatre in Florida. They use different colored rope lights on the backside of the arbor guide. That way you're not craning your neck to look at the wall cue light for the 'GO'..
Another way to do this is to have one of those "Now Serving Number..." signs. The stage manager cues the number and then turns on another light under the sign to go into 'Standby' and when it's time for the cue, the stage manager turns off the light to 'GO'
I saw a cool way to do Fly Rail lights at the Barbra Mann Theatre in Florida. They use different colored rope lights on the backside of the arbor guide. That way you're not craning your neck to look at the wall cue light for the 'GO'..
Interestingly our school recently bought a set of these but we never ended up using them. I think we bought the parts then put them together. They are definately useful, but the LEDs are rather small so you have to make sure the actors keep a close eye on them. I think a better system is to use an intercom.
Another possibility is to use a setup for what is usually refered to as hall lights, where you have two switches and either switch can turn on or off the lights
http://www.hometips.com/hyhw/electrical/22_3way.html
I would be cautious about running a switched circuit through your audio snake especially is you use the 1 pin (shield) you could easily wind up with a pop in the audio system everytime you turn the light on or off.
Audio snakes are typically 22 awg wire, a few are 20, 18 awg would be very unusual and it would make the snake very stiff
Sharyn
http://www.hometips.com/hyhw/electrical/22_3way.html
I would be cautious about running a switched circuit through your audio snake especially is you use the 1 pin (shield) you could easily wind up with a pop in the audio system everytime you turn the light on or off.
Audio snakes are typically 22 awg wire, a few are 20, 18 awg would be very unusual and it would make the snake very stiff
Sharyn
drawstuf99
Active Member
We had a very simple "cue light" for A Chorus Line when I was on crew for all of those wall units in the back to flip around from side to side. It was simply a clamp light w/ the scoop off with one of those red bulbs that is close to infrared or something so it wasn't seen or spilling onstage but just by the crew backstage.
It was off for no cue coming up, when it turned on that meant "stand by" and when it went back off that was go. It was just wired to a switch box at the SM desk. Very simple but it worked. I personally don't think there is a need for some really expensive L.E.D system with all the crazy features - then again it depends on the cue I would suppose.
It was off for no cue coming up, when it turned on that meant "stand by" and when it went back off that was go. It was just wired to a switch box at the SM desk. Very simple but it worked. I personally don't think there is a need for some really expensive L.E.D system with all the crazy features - then again it depends on the cue I would suppose.
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