Design for a house interior

J

JereNet

Member
My high school theater program, while being one of the most successful, is probably the least funded program in my school. We get $3500 a year to do two plays and a musical, and we have about zero technology that the school actually owns, meaning we have to rent about 90% of the lighting and about 75% of the sound equipment - all while staying within the $3500 of course. For our musical this year, we are wanting to build a house interior that will spin around to be a street scene, and a barn interior that will spin around to be a cabin scene. We also need to have two levels in the house. What I'm thinking, is a large platform (about 14'x14' on casters, that will have a loft type platform 8' above the bottom platform, with bracing, and then just basic flats for the backdrop between the two levels. We need two of these (one for the house and one for the barn), and they will spin around to have a different scene on the backside of the set. There will only be one person on the top platforms at any time. Are there any suggestions as far as materials, designs, safety, budget, etc.? We'd like to do it with about $350-400. Thank you!

Here is a rough drawing. I'm thinking 2x8's around the edges, 2x6's 2' apart and 3/4" OSB for the upstairs floor, 4x4's for the uprights, and 2x4's and 3/4" OSB for the bottom floor. Also, I'm thinking roughly 6-8" casters with brakes - 7 for each platform - 1 in each corner, and 1 in the middle of each side except the short side which is only 6'. Let me know what you think.
platform ex.png
 
JereNet said:
Let me know what you think.
Click to expand...
Wow... now that's ambitious! In all seriousness let me tell you that I think that you have put a great deal of thought into this proposal for which I applaud your efforts. It is refreshing to see someone in their early careers shooting for the moon and pushing themselves to do great work. Despite what I will say next, I hope that you do continue to push the limits and create great art...
I don't believe that you have the skill level/ education (notice I didn't say intelligence or creativity) to pull off this complex of a design with your given resources or lack thereof. Whenever you construct load bearing levels you bear responsibility for the safety of not only the people who use those levels but the people who will be in the proximity of these levels should they fail. That's a lot of weight to put on your shoulders and I caution you to give that careful consideration--someone being seriously injured or worse will not make you feel very accomplished. In addition to this level you will also need to construct someway to access it ... again a safety concern in terms of construction.
The 14x14 platform on large castors is something that might be possible but probably not within the budget you described. The size of castors you are describing are not cheap and those alone might put you over budget. Do you plan on using stock platforms bolted together for this or do you have to construct the deck from scratch?
 
The only thing I don't like is the 2x6 on 2ft centers.
2ft is a bit much for my taste.

With the shape you've chosen you'll end up with almost all mitered corners in your framing.
So be prepared for a larger amount of wasted lumber.

I suggest that you cut small blocks of 2x6 to brace in between your framing members.
Staggering them will give more overall strength than a straight line.
 
You may want to enlist the help of the shop teacher or vo-tech teacher to help with a rather ambitious set. You have a decent plan but as mentioned, your caster cost are going to kill you.
 
A 14' span built of 2x6 is going to deflect a lot. Span charts show about a 9' maximum span for dimensional 2x6 lumber. I'm going to assume you intend to provide adequate bracing to prevent buckling and collapse. How does an actor get up to the second storey?

Throwing another wrinkle into the design, have a chat with the lighting person about how they would light the lower storey.
 
As others have said, your casters are going to kill your budget. The casters I buy are 14 bucks and can hold 300#. They are a good all around unit and are fine in large numbers. The more casters you have, the less framing you need on your bottom level to support the whole thing. Its a give and take type of situation. You would have to either get larger casters for the corners to carry the top deck or use more casters. Because your units spins, depending on blocking you could use rigid casters and a central pivot. Rigid casters are cheaper and can support more weight them swivel. Whatever you do do, don't go to home depot to buy casters. Yes, they do sell big casters but they are usually complete junk (noisy, no bearings, etc).

So, that being said... A good caster is going to cost you 13-25 bucks a piece. You are going to need at least 16. That puts you at 200 bucks just in casters. Added to that you are going to need to buy some 6" bolts to secure the second level, thats another 20. Stage brakes or cane bolts is another 50. So, thats at least 300 dollars just in hardware and you have not bought a single piece of lumber yet. The devil is always in the details with scenery and budgeting. It takes years for a theatre to build up a good hardware stock so they can buy more lumber and less bolts. If you are going to buy hardware, always do it looking towards the future.

I would suggest you do one of two things: either scale back or start looking for some donor money. See if your friends dad who is a contractor can help you out. Go talk to the local lumber yard about cutting your a deal on lumber. Find the kid in the show with the lawyer dad who needs a tax write off. Plan out exactly what you want to build. Have your shop/industrial tech teacher look them over and help you.

Not saying it can't be done or you can't do it, however right now you barely have the budget to build 1 of these, not 2. Good luck, keep us updated.
 
Question?

Do you have a local community theatre that could LEND you some or all of the hardware?

I know back when I was in highschool, not only was the community theatre a big help, but the TD there helped build and design our sets (with our director who was also more technical).

That would honestly be the FIRST group I would talk to...if that is an option for you. Than as Footer said, talk to the lumber yard about cutting a deal.

Also, should you pull it off, and if you use typical 4'x8' platforms with some triangle platforms to give the corners on the pic...secure that triangle piece with bolts if you can. I've seen a similar set (just one level, but a tall level with lots of weight) have the corner pieces come off cause it was being pushed (in a turning manner) and was only secured by screws...with a second level...that's bad news.
 
Thanks for all the help!

Justin Tech: We do not have a community theater, so that's not an option for us. Even when we did, it was all held in the same auditorium and using the same supplies, etc.

sk8rsdad: I wasn't sure about what size lumber to go with, but there will only be one person on the top level, and so I figured that 2x6 would be OK, and doing what avkid suggested by putting staggered blocks of 2x6 between the framing members, we also have a little bit of lumber laying around (odd sizes and lengths) that I was planning to use for extra bracing. I am known for making things too strong (at least at the time of striking the set) rather than having thing fall apart. I didn't have enough time to go into detail on my sketch-up file, but there will be stairs along the back of the platform to access the second level.

I did find out, that our budget this year is a lot more because of school politics. We got a new director after our last one was fired because she was the type of person that did whatever it took to be good (which we were), and not necessarily follow all of the minute irrelevant rules and everybody loved her. So, now our school is pumping money into the program to try and have it still be successful with a new, not very well liked, director. That being said, where our budget for the whole program year round was $3500 (2 plays, a musical, one-act, and "Mock Rock" (lip-syncing talent show type show)) our budget just for the musical this year is $4000, and I was now told that money is not an issue. I like some of the ideas here, and will hopefully get it done. I will put up pictures if we get it done. Thanks again!
 
You can't ever design anything "that only one person will be on". You have to design it so the enough people that can confortably be up there can be up there. Does it need to be able to support the entire cast? No. Does it need to support at least 100 PSF? Yes. You can not guarentee that only one person will be on it at any time. Who knows what the blocking will actually turn out being. Who knows who is going to run up there during tech or to fix a light. Who knows how many people will run up there to take a picture after the show when no one is around. Who knows what kind of stop props is going to put up there. Same thing goes for show decks... they have to be built to hold a genie. If they aren't, bad things will happen because a genie is going to go on it anyway.

I will ask the "How many people" question in a production meeting to estimate deflection of a deck, but something large should never be built to hold just one person.
 
Footer said:
You can't ever design anything "that only one person will be on". You have to design it so the enough people that can confortably be up there can be up there. Does it need to be able to support the entire cast? No. Does it need to support at least 100 PSF? Yes. You can not guarentee that only one person will be on it at any time. Who knows what the blocking will actually turn out being. Who knows who is going to run up there during tech or to fix a light. Who knows how many people will run up there to take a picture after the show when no one is around. Who knows what kind of stop props is going to put up there. Same thing goes for show decks... they have to be built to hold a genie. If they aren't, bad things will happen because a genie is going to go on it anyway.

I will ask the "How many people" question in a production meeting to estimate deflection of a deck, but something large should never be built to hold just one person.
Click to expand...

When I said only one person will be on the top level, I meant that during a show, there will only be one person. It will actually be capable of holding several people.
 
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For a project like this, get the book "Structural Design for the Stage" and really do the math on the construction. Sounds like you're thinking about it well, but I think your plan is under-building it. A 2x4 framed platform needs casters on 4' centers. And I don't think 2x8 and 2x6 are enough to do 14' spans for the top. You need to consider diagonal bracing on the legs, both to stiffen the structure and to counter the slenderness factor of the legs.

Then you need to consider the connection details. The weight from the top platform transfers to the legs, so all the weight is on those connections. A compression joint is best, and bolted second best. Screwed or lagged is no good. Then that weight needs to transfer to the bottom. It should rest on the framing, not the plywood. Then the weight needs to transfer from the frame to the casters. It's not sufficient to attach the casters to the plywood deck--they need to have solid connection to the frame, through caster plates or otherwise. The weight of the upper level will all be on the four corner casters, so they need to be able to take it.

Sounds like you have some skills and can maybe pull this off, but first do the math and really consider the physics of it. Look at every connection and figure out how the weight is trying to make it fail. Think about if you put 100,000 pounds on it--how would it pull apart and how can you strengthen it?

Maybe this is why I have heartburn--I spend all day imagining unlikely circumstances that can make my stuff fail.
 
It doesn't show any in your drawing but are there any walls on the platform system anywhere? You say it is two sided so I assume there are some type of walls, if they are under the top riser it will change your span math but make the wall structural.
 
To help your costs: have you contacted local lumber yards? Not Home Depot or Lowes, but legit Loal Lumber Yards?

Sometimes you can get in touch with the owner, and a bit of a partnership gets worked out where they discount their lumber for you, you pick it up, and they get special thanks and advertising of some sort. Sometimes they're just nice, and prefer you coming there instead of Home Depot or 84 Lumber. :)

This might help decrease the cost of materials without losing quality.

It appears that you have a good start to this design, but remember a couple things: the 2nd floor will need some sort of guard rail, there needs to be a DEFINITE lock system in place. I'd suggest some wood blocks screwed into the stage, with a hole in them, and a lock pin of sufficient thickness to sink into those holes. This way it CAN'T move while locked.

Also, is this thing traveling anywhere, or JUST spinning on an axis? If the latter, also consider installing a small pipe mounted into the ground at the platform's center. This will control it's direction when not locked.

You aren't letting your limitations stop you, which is great, and you are thinking hard (hopefully with safety as your first priority) which is also good. Theatre doesn't NEED a ton of money, thought it really does help. Where does the money come from? You may be able to put together a formal proposal where you can use some of that money to make lighting PURCHASES that wouldn't require the RENTAL'S later. ;) Long term it saves money, and that's something you can sell the moneymen. :)

Oh, and in the drawing' you need cross braces, another leg at the 4' point on the walled side, and a solid support structure across the front. Rule of thumb is you don't want to go more than 4 feet without a leg.
 
Just an update for those of you who are interested. Got everything in this past week, and got this far on Saturday:
0115011333.jpg0115011333a.jpg

Spent a few hours working on it today, and got the top level of the house attached, and everything is sturdy enough for a few people, and doesn't wobble at all. We put as much bracing as we could without ruining the look of it. Still have to put up the walls and stairs, and do some final bracing. Also have to attach the top of the "barn" one, and put the OSB on the lower levels of each. Thank for all the advice!
 
Is there anychance you could run an additional leg down in the very center ?
As someone that does this kind of thing all the time, I would have, most likely, doubled the rim joists OR added two mor joists running the length of the unit. If you have issues with this unit probably your best bet for stabilizing it is going to be adding some additional 3/4 sheet good to the bottom side of the top platform. This will create a situation where, to flex the forces will have to compress the sheet goods on the bottom and stretch the ones on the top. I'm also hoping you use Smpsons or some other form of attachment for the joists other than just nailing in from the rim joist. Cross brace the hecxk out of that.
 
There will actually be a set of stairs on the back side that will be additional support, and I may or may not add another 2x4 at the bottom of them. As far as overall support, there is plenty for now. We had about 7 guys up there, and it was surprisingly sturdy. I will definitely be adding more bracing as far as just taking the little bit of side to side motion there is. The 4x4s have 1/2 inch bolts at both the top and bottom, plus screws.
 
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